Burning Out Before Speaking Up

WEBVTT

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I'd love to help you get vulnerable.

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Let's get naked.

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Hey everyone, I'm Ann.

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Welcome to the let's Get Naked podcast, where we dive deep into vulnerability.

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In this space, we'll explore what triggers us, uncover the patterns holding us back and discover how to take charge of our own growth.

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If you're ready to dig in, be vulnerable and face the tough stuff, then buckle up.

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It's time to get naked.

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On today's episode, we're going to be talking about PTSD, the kind that firefighters and first responders carry home like smoke in their clothes, not from one moment of trauma, but from years of chaos, from answering calls no one else wants to answer, From being the first on the scene when someone is dying, screaming or already gone, from holding the line between life and death and pretending like it doesn't wear you down.

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It's not just the fires they run into, it's the ones they bring home in their head.

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We praise them as heroes, but no one talks about what it costs to be one.

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No one warns them that all those images, all that adrenaline, all that helplessness you try to ignore it doesn't just go away.

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It builds, it calcifies, it haunts.

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Ptsd creeps in like a silent intruder and suddenly sleep is a battleground, sounds are weapons, your own thoughts, a minefield.

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But it's not just the firefighter who lives with PTSD, it's their family.

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It's the spouse who gets the short, clipped responses, the one who holds their breath during every shift and then holds back tears when the person who walks through the door barely feels like the one they married.

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It's the partner who absorbs the unspoken grief, the buried rage, the silence that screams louder than any siren.

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And yet the hardest, bravest work isn't running into the fire, it's facing the one inside.

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The real courage comes when that firefighter finally says I need help.

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When they step into therapy, when they open up, even just a little, when they begin to unravel the knot of pain that's been choking them for years.

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That's not weakness, that's warrior-level bravery, because healing that's not passive, it's not some peaceful retreat, it's gritty, it's terrifying.

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It means revisiting the worst days of your life, so they stop owning you.

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It means letting your guard down in a world that taught you to armor up.

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It means dragging the weight out of the dark and saying I'm not carrying this alone anymore.

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And for the spouses, the unsung heroes, it takes immense strength to stand beside someone who's falling apart and even more to set boundaries and still love them through the process and even more to set boundaries and still love them through the process.

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To say I'm here, but I need support too, that takes guts.

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That's love in its rawest, realest form.

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So let's stop pretending PTSD is some rare thing.

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Let's stop glamorizing survival and start honoring healing.

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Let's celebrate the firefighter who puts in the work to get better.

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Let's lift up the spouses who walk that brutal road right alongside them, because that kind of quiet courage that's the kind that saves lives, marriages and futures and that deserves just as much respect, maybe more, than the job ever did.

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Today I'm stripping it all off with Gary and his wife Wendy.

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Gary has been a firefighter in the Valley and paramedic for 20 years and a peer support team member for four years.

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Wendy also worked in the fire department for 22 years in admin and she is also a photographer and business owner and prides herself in being a fire wife and now fire mom.

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Welcome to the show, you guys.

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Yeah, thanks for joining.

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So, gary, I'd like to start with you if maybe you can just kind of give a little bit about how you became a firefighter and first responder, what drove you to do that and kind of how you, what your journey was in starting with that.

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Yeah, so I remember I think it was about eighth grade one of my teachers made a comment that she thought I would be a good cop.

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So from eighth grade up, going through high school and then into college, I always wanted to be a cop.

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I did test one year for a local police department.

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Didn't get it.

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And Wendy was working for a fire department and actually spoke to a fireman who used to be a cop and he was like, tell him to come and ride with me.

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So I went to the station, rode along with him and loved it.

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So then I tested with the fire department and ended up getting hired.

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Nice, okay, what was that like initially?

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Did that?

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Was that everything you thought it was going to be?

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Did you not know what to expect when you first started kind of going out on on calls and doing the damn thing?

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You know, I knew so.

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Like just about everybody that gets hired in the fire department does ride alongs, and then you do more than one ride along, you do multiple ride alongsongs.

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You end up seeing um the calls that they go on the fires, the ems calls.

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So I kind of knew what I was getting into.

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Um the offer, the call wise.

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I did know what I was getting into, yeah okay, when did you feel like shit's getting real?

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you know how long had you been doing things where you started seeing some stuff where it was like holy shit getting real.

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You know how long had you been doing things where you started seeing some stuff where it was like holy shit?

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I don't know that.

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I knew I was signing up for this it wasn't until I had about 15 years on, okay, yeah, okay.

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And to go back when I did get hired, like I said, she was working for the fire department and the day I got the call that I was going to go to the next academy, wendy, I called.

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I called Wendy and told Wendy and she told me she asked me do me a favor, just don't change.

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I was like and I thought what the hell are you talking about?

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Why am I going to change?

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You know?

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But she had noticed guys coming through, young on the job, certain character had more time on the job, turned into somebody else.

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We didn't know why.

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So she, yeah, just asked me not to change.

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And, again, like I said, I had no idea what she was talking about.

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But it wasn't until about 15 years on, when I went on a certain call and I've had hundreds of these calls.

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It was a code and it was an adult.

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And, like I said, I've had hundreds of these calls.

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It was a code and it was an adult.

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And, like I said, I've had hundreds of them.

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And it's typically when they're not breathing and their heart has stopped or their heart's in maybe a funky rhythm, but going on this call.

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As we were there, I started like getting sick to my stomach.

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We, you know, we worked the guy.

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We took him to the hospital and it was closer to dinner time and we hadn't cooked yet, so we were going to go eat out.

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But I was still just sick to my stomach and just thinking about this call.

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So we go to the restaurant, I order my food and I'm thinking like I'm not going to eat, I can't eat, and we go back to the station.

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But I still bought it just in case I got hungry.

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But I still didn't eat dinner that night.

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But I kept thinking about this call.

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So then the next morning we get off at 8 am in the morning.

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I drive home and I'm still thinking about this guy and I don't know why, you know.

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So I get home and I park in my driveway and I call somebody on the job that I really trusted and just told him OK, man, we had this call and for some reason I can't stop thinking about it.

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It's bothering me, you know.

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So that's when I started noticing that it was affecting.

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It wasn't.

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I didn't notice that I had a problem.

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I just didn't know why I was thinking about this one, you know.

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So the next two shifts, I actually called out a work sick.

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I had a problem.

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I just didn't know why I was thinking about this one, you know, um, so the next two shifts, I actually called out a work sick.

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I was thinking, okay, I just need to sleep a little more.

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Um, maybe I need to start working out a little more.

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Maybe I need to take some supplements to help me.

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You know, maybe um, get better sleep, whatever.

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So I called out sick for those two shifts.

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And then I go back to work.

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And it wasn't like I was thinking about this call 24-7, it was more of as soon as I heard the tones, I would remember and think about it.

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Um, and then things.

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So I was a paramedic as well, and then things started getting to where we I didn't.

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I can't even give you an example of the type of call but okay, your knee hurts, maybe you should go to the hospital because you're not going to die, you're not going to die on me, even though it's just your knee, you know, I know you're not going to die, but I don't want to see death again, so I just want you to go to the hospital.

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That was starting to get a little irrational and months had gone by now, and then it started to get to where I started having nightmares about this call and Wendy and I started thinking about this call more and more often.

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It wasn't just when the tones went off, but I would think about it like the whole time I was at work.

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And then it got to where I was thinking about it at work and I was thinking about it at home and it started to become 24-7, this call.

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And I remember I was so mentally like exhausted from thinking of it.

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And another part that was like driving me crazy was that I saw a three-year-old shot in the head and I was able to move on from that.

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This is a grown adult like why is this one bothering me?

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You know, um, like I said, I've been on tons of those, and so it would come to be at night, and Wendy and I would argue about this because it would be 7 pm at night and I'm ready to go to bed.

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I'm so mentally exhausted from it, I'm ready to go to bed and I would tell her, hey, let's go to bed.

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Well, she's like I'm not tired yet, I don't want to go to bed.

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So we would argue about going to bed because I'm not going to tell her that I'm struggling, right.

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But if she came in at 9 pm and woke me up, first thing I saw was that call.

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And I didn't know Right.

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And so you're on the outside trying to wonder why he's acting weird.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So she would come in whatever time.

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Her and the dogs would come in and wake me up and I would think of it and now I would be up for the rest of the night.

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You know, just can't stop.

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It was almost like a broken record, um, and even if she came in and didn't wake me up, if I woke up at you know 1 pm, it was still the first thing that I saw when I woke up and I would get up and go to the couch and but be up, just just nonstop thinking about it.

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And so about nine months went by trying to figure out what the hell is going on.

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You know, I'm not telling, nobody knew.

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Nobody at work knew she had no idea.

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I remember driving on the freeway and I was still thinking about it and I was like, hey man, you got a problem.

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And so I had actually looked into calling the counselor on my own, staying away from my department, I do not want them to know.

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And I did call around to a few and they're like okay, we can see you in a month.

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No, I can't wait a month, I need it now.

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So nine months have gone by and I call out of works again, and I had been calling out frequently.

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My occurrences started going up, which was completely unlike him.

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Right.

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And so prior to that, like I loved going to work, I loved going to work, I loved helping people, I loved hanging out with my crew, and it was I loved the job that happened.

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I hated the job.

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So nine months went by and I called out of work sick two shifts in a row, and if you call out for a third shift in a row, you have to get a doctor's note on why you were out.

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And that third shift was coming up and I was like I can't go back, I can't do it, you know.

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Um, and in the meantime sorry to backtrack, just to give you an example of like we went on a homeless gentleman on the side of the road begging for money or food and somebody witnessed him fall and called us and we went there and he was drunk.

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He was so drunk.

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Every time we stood him up he would fall over and he's right by a busy intersection.

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And I'm telling the guy you can't, we got to take you to the hospital, you can't be here, you're going to get hit by a car.

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And he knew his rights.

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He was like hey, I'm answering all your questions appropriately, you cannot take me, but he is drunk, so drunk, like I said, he couldn't stand.

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So I call our doctor and I explained to him exactly what I have there, because I know he's going to get hit by a car and I don't want that responsibility.

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So I called the doc and put it on the doc and the doc was like um, basically said you know he's answering all your questions, you can leave him there.

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Well, that takes the responsibility off of me.

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But driving back to the station I'm like I'm thinking to myself these guys are going to talk shit about me.

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I called a doctor on a homeless person, like who does that?

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And I couldn't rationalize that.

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Hey, that is the best thing for me as a paramedic, for my crew, for my the city that I work for, I'm covering all of our bases, but I, I just thought they're going to talk crap about me.

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Who does that?

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You know?

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Um, and I had many instances of those throughout those nine months.

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So, like I was saying, I called out sick two shifts in a row.

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The third one came about and I just knew I couldn't go back.

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So I called out the third shift in a row and I was like I have got to get help, you know, and I called, like a facility that we have, for it's a health center, you know.

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And I told them I was like, hey, I can't go to work right now, I can't shut my mind off, what do I do?

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And they basically told me we don't know, this is coming from a doctor.

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We don't know.

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How long ago was this?

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This was in 2020.

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Okay, and so I hung up the phone, phone thinking like what am I going to?

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I don't know what to do.

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You know, I'm going to quit my job because I don't want anybody to know, you know.

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So I'd rather quit than anybody know.

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And um, the doctor ended up calling me back about an hour later.

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So he obviously asked around and he said uh, why don't you call um?

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We have a clinician.

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Why don't you call that clinician a clinician?

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Why don't you call that clinician?

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And so I called her and explained everything to her crying on the phone.

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I couldn't control my emotions and she said okay, we're gonna, we're gonna take care of it.

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And she asked me do you want to find your own clinician or do you want me to find one for you?

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And I said no, I'm gonna find my own.

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I'm gonna stay as far away from you guys as possible.

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And I ended up finding a clinician that was going to get me in fairly quick and, um, I started seeing her and she ended up uh, I can't remember if it was the first or second session I had with her.

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She's like why don't you quit your job?

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Yeah.

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And I said I will like, if nothing works, I will definitely quit, but let's work on everything first and see if I can get better.

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And I still had no idea what I was dealing with.

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Yeah.

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And she said well, I think by the time we're done with you, you're going to want to quit.

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And I said okay, well, let's try.

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And she said you know, I got another first responder a job at Home Depot and he loves it.

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Why don't you go work in an office?

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And I this is at work, she's telling me too.

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And I said I don't have an office, my office, is a fire truck right, and so she had no idea what we do for a living.

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You know um she also didn't know what's at stake.

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Like they have a pension, they have all these things right.

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So if you, leave early.

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You don't get that right like it's a big deal, yeah, so she didn't have really a clue yeah, and you know I went in to talk to her about this one specific call and she wanted to do EMDR which.

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I'm all on board with EMDR.

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At the time I didn't know what it was and I thought it was foo-foo stuff, um, but she wanted to do it on.

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I didn't like to fly and and so, like right off the bat, I don't trust her.

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Like hey, I got bigger problems right now than I'm not flying anywhere tomorrow, right.

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So I ended up calling back our clinician and I said, hey, I need somebody that knows what we do for a living.

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And she ended up hooking me up with another clinician in her office and I've to this day I still see her.

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Nice, yeah, okay, so this is back in 2020.

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How, wendy, how long like did you see the signs for this coming on?

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Was this something that you saw kind of unfolding prior to when this actually occurred, or what did that look like from where you were sitting?

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So I didn't know that they were signs, but I saw them early on, I would say two years of him being on the job.

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We were having a ton of trouble, we separated for about three months, you know, caused all this devastation with our kids.

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They were little, little, like all of that and, um, I didn't know they were signs of ptsd.

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I literally thought he has a big head, he's big fireman.

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Now you know he's an like.

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I didn't know any of that, I didn't know what to look for and, like he had mentioned, I saw guys come through fire that were, you know, the greatest guys as, like they call them, a red shirt, you know, bright eyed and so excited to start this job.

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And then, a few years later, some of them I would see and I'm like that's a completely different person.

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But, I had no idea why.

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I just thought, you know that was just I don't know like a fluke or something.

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I didn't know, I had no idea.

00:18:10.654 --> 00:18:22.465
But with us, when you know, when we separated, looking back, you know how many years late that was what.

00:18:22.465 --> 00:18:29.971
17 years ago, that was a huge like red flag.

00:18:29.971 --> 00:18:37.255
Had I known then what I know now, I would say those were signs for sure.

00:18:37.255 --> 00:18:46.082
Like back then it was very devastating, affected our kids a lot To this day.

00:18:46.142 --> 00:18:59.288
I think it still affects my daughter, um, but after learning signs and symptoms and all of that, we learned about like secondary PTSD and how we can pass that on to our kids.

00:18:59.288 --> 00:19:10.347
And you know we create that environment that they they don't know, they're just absorbing all this like negative and you know negativity and I don't know.

00:19:10.347 --> 00:19:21.615
So there's a lot of like guilt and shame and responsibility that I feel for that, because had I known sooner, um, maybe we could have saved our kids from that.

00:19:21.615 --> 00:19:32.188
But also, living with someone like that had so many I I didn't know again, like when he's talking about that nine month period.

00:19:32.188 --> 00:19:34.154
Yeah, I had no clue.

00:19:35.268 --> 00:19:36.673
I thought we were just having trouble again.

00:19:36.673 --> 00:19:49.304
I thought it was me, I thought he doesn't want to be with me, like we've been together since high school, he's bored, he's, you know, he's not in love with me anymore, like all of these things.

00:19:49.304 --> 00:19:52.976
And so we were basically living like roommates, you know.

00:19:52.976 --> 00:19:56.233
We had like a mutual respect, but there was nothing.

00:19:56.233 --> 00:19:57.818
It just felt empty.

00:19:57.818 --> 00:20:00.165
Um, but I internalized all of that.

00:20:00.165 --> 00:20:00.969
I thought it was me.

00:20:00.969 --> 00:20:14.560
He just doesn't want to be with me anymore, he doesn't want this family, he doesn't want like what, who I am, what I have to offer, and so I was kind of putting that on myself without knowing any different.

00:20:14.560 --> 00:20:17.892
So it just created more problems.

00:20:17.892 --> 00:20:26.296
We just argued more and didn't like each other more and it was yeah, it was miserable.

00:20:27.226 --> 00:20:35.752
That's a rough time to not feel comfortable to speak with who's supposed to be your trusted confidant in that situation about what you're going through.

00:20:36.567 --> 00:20:40.757
Right and there's a persona that we want to carry.

00:20:40.757 --> 00:20:45.050
You know, I'm a strong guy, I should be able to handle that.

00:20:45.050 --> 00:20:53.008
You know, of course I didn't want my crew to know, anybody in the fire department to know, because there's a big stigma behind it.

00:20:53.008 --> 00:21:00.211
But also I'm their protector, you know, and there's no way in hell I'm going to let them know, I'm going to deal with this myself.

00:21:00.211 --> 00:21:10.737
You know, not that we fix people's problems, but we get them to people that can fix their problems, you know, and we mitigate them in route or whatever.

00:21:10.737 --> 00:21:13.980
Well, I have a problem and I can fix my problem on my own.

00:21:14.424 --> 00:21:23.268
you know, until you realize I can't and I hit rock bottom, you know, and um so yeah, she was.

00:21:23.268 --> 00:21:25.537
I'm going to take care of it before she finds out.

00:21:25.817 --> 00:21:34.205
Yeah, the day he went to that very first appointment, I didn't even know about that he's leaving and I'm like where are you going appointment?

00:21:34.205 --> 00:21:35.971
I didn't even know about that he's leaving and I'm like where are you going?

00:21:35.971 --> 00:21:37.575
I have an appointment, like okay, is everything okay?

00:21:37.575 --> 00:21:39.520
And I immediately go to.

00:21:39.520 --> 00:21:45.237
You know he's had thyroid cancer so like is I'm thinking those types of things?

00:21:45.237 --> 00:21:50.191
Um, I had no idea what kind of appointment he had, yeah, so I didn't even know.

00:21:50.191 --> 00:21:52.878
He came home and then he did share with me.

00:21:52.878 --> 00:21:58.511
You know that one call I'm still thinking about and it kind of all came out at that time.

00:21:58.511 --> 00:22:04.852
I did not know until the day he was going to that appointment with the first clinician.

00:22:04.912 --> 00:22:09.007
That wasn't helpful you know too, she brought up thyroid cancer.

00:22:09.007 --> 00:22:10.009
So I found out, I got hired.

00:22:10.009 --> 00:22:13.115
Found out I got hired, found out I had thyroid cancer.

00:22:13.115 --> 00:22:17.536
Found out that they couldn't hire me because I was currently having cancer.

00:22:17.536 --> 00:22:24.875
But leading up to that, 15 years, before that one call, we even talked about it like, hey, I need to deal with that thyroid cancer.

00:22:24.875 --> 00:22:25.868
I haven't dealt with that yet.

00:22:25.868 --> 00:22:27.718
Maybe that's why I'm having some of these problems.

00:22:27.718 --> 00:22:30.346
And granted, the thyroid cancer probably was part of it.

00:22:30.346 --> 00:22:36.618
But I think the other stuff, the PTSI, the injury of that, was starting to set in with me.

00:22:36.618 --> 00:22:40.834
But I blamed it on the thyroid cancer because I can do this job.

00:22:40.834 --> 00:22:43.170
I've been doing this job, everybody else can do this job.

00:22:43.170 --> 00:22:44.285
Why can't I, you know?

00:22:44.285 --> 00:22:47.968
So we both were blaming it on the thyroid cancer, you know.

00:22:48.367 --> 00:22:57.355
Did you feel like, after you've kind of reconciled and done some of the work on this one specific instance that you're referring to, was it that or was that the straw?

00:22:57.635 --> 00:22:58.195
That was the straw?

00:22:58.195 --> 00:23:00.597
Okay, yeah, it wasn't, it was.

00:23:00.597 --> 00:23:15.891
So the way we like to explain it too was like I have a cup in every call, put a marble in that cup, that last call was just I couldn't put that marble anywhere else, you know.

00:23:15.891 --> 00:23:18.842
And finally going to counseling and talking about that one call and doing EMDR with that one call a bunch of other calls popped up.

00:23:18.862 --> 00:23:23.935
You know that I never knew I had an issue with, but I did, and for me there was always a theme with them.

00:23:23.935 --> 00:23:26.769
You know, families involved.

00:23:26.769 --> 00:23:28.352
I talked to family members.

00:23:28.352 --> 00:23:35.670
I've seen their reaction, you know, and a lot of people ask and I just got asked this last week, what was the worst call you've ever seen.

00:23:35.670 --> 00:23:39.454
You know, granted, we see stuff we should not see.

00:23:39.454 --> 00:23:42.815
However, it's the reaction of the families that I can't deal with.

00:23:42.815 --> 00:23:49.238
You know that's way harder than seeing a body down there, you know so.

00:23:50.224 --> 00:23:52.133
The screams like those are haunting.

00:23:52.133 --> 00:23:53.763
You know the mom that lost the baby.

00:23:53.763 --> 00:23:59.778
Those screams, those kind of things are, are what he remembers.

00:24:00.280 --> 00:24:07.756
You know do you feel like it's gotten better as far as people in that industry being able to talk about it, or is it still very?

00:24:07.756 --> 00:24:13.836
Um, we'll deal with it very quietly or not, or I've got this.

00:24:13.836 --> 00:24:16.634
Do you feel like it's still that or do you feel like it's gotten any better?

00:24:16.634 --> 00:24:18.070
I think it's gotten a little bit better.

00:24:20.046 --> 00:24:26.971
It's the stigma behind it, and I actually read an article that those six words or six letters stigma is what's killing firemen.

00:24:26.971 --> 00:24:32.776
You know they don't want to ask for help because they don't want to be labeled weak or what's wrong with them.

00:24:34.246 --> 00:24:40.699
We are talking about it more, but I think we could do much more about it and even get in front of it.

00:24:40.699 --> 00:24:48.088
You know, like I talked about PTSI, I think we all experienced that in the fire service and with me, if I would have.

00:24:48.088 --> 00:24:53.442
We've gone on people with PTSD all the time and I always treated people good, but in my mind I'm thinking this has got to the time and I always treated people good.

00:24:53.442 --> 00:24:56.253
But in my mind I'm thinking this has got to be fake.

00:24:56.253 --> 00:24:57.329
I don't understand it.

00:24:57.329 --> 00:24:58.971
You know, I knew nothing about it.

00:24:58.971 --> 00:25:02.875
I didn't know I had PTSD until I saw my second counselor.

00:25:02.875 --> 00:25:08.750
She's the one that finally told me hey, you have PTSD, you know, but I knew nothing about it.

00:25:08.750 --> 00:25:16.010
And if I would have known about it prior to, you know, that call happened and I had all this training on PTSD signs and symptoms.

00:25:16.010 --> 00:25:24.247
Hey, maybe what I'm experiencing is what they've been teaching me, you know, and it would have stayed an injury, but because I did not ask for help, I allowed it to become a disorder.

00:25:24.247 --> 00:25:26.550
The D in PTSD.

00:25:27.873 --> 00:25:33.839
How were you, how were you raised as far as emotionally, with your, with your parents?

00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:37.233
Was that something where you were encouraged to express your emotions?

00:25:37.233 --> 00:25:43.251
Was it something where you know we've talked about a lot on this show stop being a pussy, suck it up, you know?

00:25:43.251 --> 00:25:45.445
Is that the the culture that you were raised in?

00:25:45.486 --> 00:25:47.872
yeah, my dad my parents were both great.

00:25:47.872 --> 00:25:53.855
I have no complaints about my parents at all and you know we we talk about a lot of people in the fire service that bring in baggage.

00:25:53.855 --> 00:26:00.731
Like I don't feel like I had a lot of baggage coming in, but my dad was the same way.

00:26:00.731 --> 00:26:01.535
I was with my boy.

00:26:01.535 --> 00:26:03.907
You get hurt, rub some dirt on it, you hit one home run.

00:26:03.907 --> 00:26:06.355
You could have hit two if you did this.

00:26:06.355 --> 00:26:08.872
You know, God, it is rough with you men.

00:26:13.285 --> 00:26:18.067
I'm telling you like, the more I dive into this stuff and it's not your fault, so please don't take it that way, because I absolutely adore men, but it is, I feel, for you guys.

00:26:18.067 --> 00:26:21.218
I sit across the couch from people who you know.

00:26:21.218 --> 00:26:26.114
I had a gal whose husband killed himself because it's just be strong, just be strong.

00:26:26.114 --> 00:26:27.217
We're not supposed to talk about it.

00:26:27.217 --> 00:26:29.948
Well, let's fucking talk about it, you know let's.

00:26:29.948 --> 00:26:44.853
Let's have it so that we normalize that shit, instead of expecting our men to have no resources, no outlet, no speaking about stuff, no even being able to just have a good cry by yourself, right, like, where is any of that?

00:26:44.853 --> 00:26:46.256
None of that, it's.

00:26:46.256 --> 00:26:47.136
You're a pussy.

00:26:47.136 --> 00:26:48.647
If you do that, you can't handle it.

00:26:48.647 --> 00:26:54.228
Like you said, the whole stigma for things, um, you know, it's what drives me to have these conversations.

00:26:54.228 --> 00:26:56.272
It's because I don't want that to be a thing.

00:26:56.272 --> 00:27:01.505
I don't want anyone to feel like they're isolated and they're dealing with the weight of the world all on their own right?

00:27:01.644 --> 00:27:03.894
or that we're passing that on to our kids, right?

00:27:03.894 --> 00:27:07.005
I mean we watch as we've done that no, you're right.

00:27:07.144 --> 00:27:16.799
And so when I was struggling, I was so irrational that I I seriously thought I am the only fireman that was struggling.

00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:24.019
And, knowing what I know now and looking back at my career, I've seen it throughout my entire career from so many different people you know.

00:27:24.019 --> 00:27:31.836
So, yeah, I'm back to how my parents were with me, like we were talking about earlier.

00:27:31.836 --> 00:27:49.646
She was pregnant when I was in high school and I had football practice and I was running off the field and my dad was there and he had just found out that she was pregnant and he shook his head no at me and looked at me as I ran off, never said another word and supported me ever since you know.

00:27:49.646 --> 00:27:52.872
So they were really good, yeah.

00:27:54.796 --> 00:27:55.896
How were your parents growing up?

00:27:55.896 --> 00:27:57.019
Did you have siblings, Wendy?

00:28:07.788 --> 00:28:08.710
No, I'm an only child, okay.

00:28:08.710 --> 00:28:10.413
I have half siblings now For my dad's.

00:28:10.433 --> 00:28:11.877
my dad had kids, but they're the same age as my kids.

00:28:11.897 --> 00:28:17.306
Okay, so, yeah, interesting fun dynamic, my kids, okay.

00:28:17.306 --> 00:28:18.067
So, yeah, interesting fun dynamic.

00:28:18.067 --> 00:28:18.288
Yeah, um, um.

00:28:18.288 --> 00:28:19.029
So single mom for most of my life.

00:28:19.029 --> 00:28:27.449
Um, my mom got married when, I believe if I remember correctly, I think she was I was 13, um, but he was gone a lot.

00:28:27.449 --> 00:28:42.116
He was a truck driver so he wasn't home very much and also, you know, my mom's was more of I was her daughter, not his, so she was still pretty much kind of handling things.

00:28:44.586 --> 00:28:52.017
So, yeah, Do you feel like in your house, do you talk about that with your kids now?

00:28:52.017 --> 00:28:53.252
Has your healing journey kind of been?

00:28:53.252 --> 00:28:54.078
You talk about that with your kids now?

00:28:54.078 --> 00:28:59.056
Has your healing journey kind of been something that you share with your children or with other people?

00:28:59.056 --> 00:29:06.275
Right, I mean, you talked about it wasn't something that you kind of talk about in the fire department, but is it something that you're more open to talk about now, just because you do see what?

00:29:06.315 --> 00:29:07.057
oh, 100 percent.

00:29:07.057 --> 00:29:19.673
I tell anybody and everybody that asks I've done her and I have done a video for the fire department, kind of showing what we've gone through.

00:29:19.693 --> 00:29:20.255
A little bit.

00:29:21.076 --> 00:29:25.196
Um, and I'm open about it and what I like about it is.

00:29:25.196 --> 00:29:33.396
So I'll say I had a good reputation, a great reputation, prior to this, and I think I still do, because I always did the right thing.

00:29:33.396 --> 00:29:35.490
I worked hard, you know, I was a good employee.

00:29:35.490 --> 00:29:41.714
People wanted to work with me, and it's a little different in the fire service because we actually have to live with people and are you a good roommate, you know?

00:29:41.714 --> 00:29:47.358
So I, I will say I lived my interview throughout my entire career.

00:29:47.358 --> 00:29:55.829
So now a lot of younger members that looked up to me call me when they're struggling, you know, and that's what I really like about it now, and so I'm so open about it.

00:29:57.086 --> 00:30:02.451
But I think the main reason why I'm open about it is because my son's a fireman and I actually asked him to quit.

00:30:02.451 --> 00:30:05.152
You know, I do not want him to deal with this.

00:30:05.152 --> 00:30:13.156
What I dealt with, you know, and just the fire service itself is changing to where cancer is more prevalent now.

00:30:13.156 --> 00:30:20.835
Mental health, it's being talked about, so we're seeing a lot more of it and I want better for him, you know.

00:30:20.835 --> 00:30:22.491
And so, like I said, I sat him down.

00:30:22.491 --> 00:30:23.830
I was like, dude, why don't you quit, man?

00:30:23.830 --> 00:30:35.646
It's not worth it in the long run, you know, and he's like Dad, I'm having a good time and I remember that you know, and so I said, okay, bub, like I get that we have all these resources right here.

00:30:35.646 --> 00:30:39.817
You need to use them before you get to where I got, you know.

00:30:39.817 --> 00:30:48.346
So, yeah, I'm wide open about it and I you know we get we want to become a fireman and one of the reasons why is to help people.

00:30:48.986 --> 00:31:30.069
I still get to do that, but it's my own members, you know, and even people that I like talking about that and how helpful that is, or the other or the other modalities that you've done to kind of heal some of that stuff where, all of this time that you have as firefighters back at the station, right, what if you actually had things that were implemented, where you could talk about the shit that you saw right and process the stuff that you saw as that was happening?

00:31:30.069 --> 00:31:41.756
And I don't know if they're getting better about doing that, but if you're not, fire departments, whoever's, whoever's in charge, do better right, because you guys are putting your lives on the line to serve and to be right.

00:31:41.756 --> 00:31:58.586
The guys that are out there, the guys and gals that are out there that are taking care of us, we should be taking care of you on the backside of that, so that that isn't such a stigma and that isn't something where it's, we don't talk about it.

00:31:58.606 --> 00:31:59.369
You're in a peer support.

00:31:59.390 --> 00:32:02.318
Tell me about what that looks like and is that something that was there before or something that's new now?

00:32:02.318 --> 00:32:02.599
What you know?

00:32:02.599 --> 00:32:09.001
It was there before, but, again, it was still a tool that was never utilized and or, if it was, so I can give you an example.

00:32:09.001 --> 00:32:15.369
We have a criteria of certain calls that go on a, a drowning, a pediatric code, pediatric trauma.

00:32:15.369 --> 00:32:28.089
There's I don't know, a list of calls that go out, where there's automatically like a text that goes out, maybe to our clinician or the peer support lead, and okay, this crew, these are all the people that went on this drowning.

00:32:28.089 --> 00:32:31.247
Hey, we need to call them and find out how they're doing the next day.

00:32:31.247 --> 00:32:34.394
So we do call them.

00:32:34.394 --> 00:32:37.019
Hey, I heard you went on this call yesterday how are you doing, man?

00:32:37.019 --> 00:32:47.349
But we're tuned to say I'm doing good, even though I might not be, you know, and so something that I like to do when I call these guys hey, I heard you had this call yesterday.

00:32:47.349 --> 00:32:48.010
Man, how are you doing?

00:32:48.010 --> 00:32:48.791
How's your crew doing?

00:32:48.791 --> 00:32:49.432
I'm doing good.

00:32:49.432 --> 00:32:50.935
Good, that's good to hear.

00:32:50.955 --> 00:33:09.856
Hey, man, I had a call that fucked me up yeah like I know, um, it's okay to say this call bothered me, you know, and she knows about a lot of the calls that we've been on, and I know in the past I went on a family that was run over right in the middle of the street and we had the four-year-old daughter who was a trauma code.

00:33:09.856 --> 00:33:12.446
Um, we get back to the station.

00:33:12.446 --> 00:33:17.556
Hey, you good, yeah, good, yeah, I'm good, but we're all in a separate corner of the back parking lot calling home upset, you know.

00:33:17.556 --> 00:33:22.031
But, like I said, things are getting better to where I had a drowning.

00:33:22.031 --> 00:33:30.126
And riding back to the station, the captain who leads the crew and everybody's going to follow their example was like hey, guys, we're going home tonight.

00:33:30.326 --> 00:33:30.508
Yeah.

00:33:30.907 --> 00:33:33.371
You know, and I thought to myself do I, am I going home?

00:33:33.371 --> 00:33:34.332
You know what?

00:33:34.332 --> 00:33:35.513
I want my son to go home.

00:33:35.513 --> 00:33:38.616
So, yeah, I'm going home because I'm setting that example for him.

00:33:38.616 --> 00:33:41.279
So it is changing, it is getting better.

00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:47.632
There is still a big stigma behind it, but it's moving in the right direction.

00:33:48.413 --> 00:33:53.126
You leading with vulnerability and saying I had a call that fucked me up too.

00:33:53.126 --> 00:34:09.335
When you're talking to somebody, that to me, I think, does so much for either the younger guys or just other people who didn't feel like they could say that right, because you can share your story with them and say I felt so much better when I was able to process this.

00:34:09.335 --> 00:34:18.871
It doesn't even have to be with a clinician yes, it can be right but even just speaking with other people speaking with your wife, speaking with your son, speaking with right and you want to be able to.

00:34:18.871 --> 00:34:19.934
Your son's a firefighter.

00:34:19.934 --> 00:34:30.735
You want to be able to show him how to process this in a healthy way, as it's happening, instead of just like the marbles in the jar, like you talk about, because you get to a place where it's like I don't have any more room to put this.

00:34:30.775 --> 00:34:31.918
What does that even look like?

00:34:31.918 --> 00:34:35.262
You really could have imploded your entire life.

00:34:35.262 --> 00:34:37.112
I mean, it was already bad enough the way that it was.

00:34:37.112 --> 00:34:43.132
But you know, you see, these people, they don't have an outlet to be able to speak about that because everybody has to be so strong.

00:34:43.132 --> 00:34:50.112
So it does take the bravery of being able to be vulnerable in front and show emotion.

00:34:53.344 --> 00:34:55.369
You know, it's something where I was raised in the same, around the same time where it was.

00:34:55.369 --> 00:34:59.077
You know, I was in my family on the on the tomboy side of it.

00:34:59.077 --> 00:35:00.409
That looked a lot easier to me.

00:35:00.409 --> 00:35:03.385
I didn't want the emotional, messy stuff that my mom brought to the table.

00:35:03.385 --> 00:35:31.233
I was like, nah, I'm, I'm with these guys, you know, um, and so it was just no emotion, right, you just push it down, I'm fine, I'm fine, everything's fine, everything's fine until it's not fine, right, right, because I had a bunch of bullshit that happened that I didn't deal with, and so I just you just keep pushing it down, pushing it down until something gives, right, um, and so being able to be vocal about that and share that with people, so that they don't get to that point, because you don't want that for your son, you don't want that for your.

00:35:31.434 --> 00:35:34.239
You know brothers and sisters that are at the fire station.

00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:35.349
You don't want that for them.

00:35:35.349 --> 00:35:35.972
You don't want that.

00:35:35.972 --> 00:35:36.646
You saw that.

00:35:36.646 --> 00:35:41.851
You know, like you said, somebody's bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, and a couple years later it's like holy shit.

00:35:41.851 --> 00:35:42.914
What happened to this one?

00:35:42.914 --> 00:35:45.532
You know, but it's over and over and over again.

00:35:45.532 --> 00:35:48.889
This is not how we should be taking care of our folks.

00:35:48.889 --> 00:35:52.333
But everyone's scared to be able to stand up and say the hard things, right.

00:35:52.333 --> 00:35:56.980
That's why it's for me it's so important to have these conversations to say, you know what.

00:35:56.980 --> 00:35:57.945
It's okay, it does.

00:35:57.945 --> 00:36:01.215
It takes guts and it takes courage to be able to say, man, I'm fucked up right now.

00:36:01.215 --> 00:36:15.117
Right, this is really, this is really messing with me, and and and being able to do that it lets somebody else either listening that didn't speak up, or someone that could come back also and say, yeah, this is, this is getting me too, you know.

00:36:15.117 --> 00:36:20.289
But that first person, right, that first person that speaks up, that's brave shit.

00:36:20.550 --> 00:36:24.137
Yeah, you know, and as a fireman, like we compare right.

00:36:24.137 --> 00:36:35.998
So, um, I'll hear somebody else talking at a conference and they were involved in a shooting or they got shot or they pulled nine dead bodies out.

00:36:35.998 --> 00:36:43.048
You know I compare them like well, okay, I can understand that they have PTSD, but I shouldn't have it for that one call, you know.

00:36:43.048 --> 00:36:48.889
But now that I'm open about it and learned what I've learned, I had people come up to me.

00:36:48.889 --> 00:36:51.516
I work for a small department man and we don't run calls like you.

00:36:51.516 --> 00:36:56.846
I shouldn't have it.

00:36:56.846 --> 00:36:57.867
Yeah, you should have it, it doesn't matter.

00:36:57.867 --> 00:37:00.715
You know, my cup might only be 20,000 marbles and yours might be 40 or 10,000.

00:37:00.715 --> 00:37:01.096
It doesn't matter.

00:37:01.096 --> 00:37:01.938
And we don't know when.

00:37:01.978 --> 00:37:06.831
We're going to get to that point, you know, and throughout our careers that point is going to change too.

00:37:06.831 --> 00:37:14.039
For instance, I had a call where big kid in a car crunched dead we couldn't even get him out.

00:37:14.039 --> 00:37:15.900
Looked like my son.

00:37:15.900 --> 00:37:18.592
You know, my son was 26 at the time.

00:37:18.592 --> 00:37:24.409
That's going to affect me way more than going on a three-year-old and that's sad to say, but it's going to, you know.

00:37:24.409 --> 00:37:30.630
And now that we have our grandbaby, baby calls are going to affect my son more than they did two years ago.

00:37:30.630 --> 00:37:37.253
So that's all your cups always changing and you just don't know when or where, but I guarantee you it's going to happen.

00:37:37.514 --> 00:37:46.865
Right, well, and I think, just even talking about it like having that be something that's encouraged back at the station, of being able to talk with each other about stuff, instead of feeling like you got to be the tough guy.

00:37:46.865 --> 00:37:50.871
Nobody has to be the tough guy, right, we were raised that way and I totally get that.

00:37:50.871 --> 00:37:52.353
For a lot of us we were raised that way.

00:37:52.353 --> 00:37:55.157
But we know, right, we know better now.

00:37:55.157 --> 00:37:56.559
We know what that looks like.

00:37:56.559 --> 00:37:57.481
We understand.

00:37:57.481 --> 00:38:01.594
Hey, just keep keep being tough and being strong and being whatever.

00:38:01.594 --> 00:38:02.516
What does that get you?

00:38:03.666 --> 00:38:04.307
Now nowhere.

00:38:04.307 --> 00:38:31.443
And something that I've noticed and I can only strip from talk about my own personal experience on this, is the tough guy is probably struggling more than I am, because the things that I know now the drinking, the drugs, the divorces, the anger, the blowing up on other people are typically the ones that are talking shit about the guys that struggle, and they should be sitting next to me talking about same thing that I'm talking about.

00:38:31.463 --> 00:38:36.577
Thousand percent, yeah well, you watch, and it's like the emotional intelligence component of stuff, right.

00:38:36.577 --> 00:38:43.516
I always liken it to like the big tough guy that's driving the car right or driving the truck and he's pissed off in traffic and he can't regulate his emotions.

00:38:43.516 --> 00:38:45.472
Well, where the fuck do you think that came from?

00:38:45.472 --> 00:38:47.784
Just out of curiosity, right?

00:38:47.784 --> 00:38:51.916
Because men were not raised to be able to handle their emotions at all.

00:38:51.916 --> 00:38:53.565
None of them.

00:38:53.565 --> 00:38:54.971
They don't even know how to identify them, you know.

00:38:54.971 --> 00:39:04.065
So if you feel hurt, if you feel sad, if you feel anything, you turn it into anger and rage and then it's like oh, there's a, there he is, that's the tough guy, you know.

00:39:04.065 --> 00:39:05.987
Whatever, Nobody needs any more tough guys.

00:39:06.608 --> 00:39:08.391
You know the tough guy doesn't even want to be the tough guy.

00:39:08.391 --> 00:39:14.978
Right, I've sat across the this on this couch with a bunch of guys that don't want to be tough guys that realize, hey, this sucks.

00:39:14.978 --> 00:39:18.268
You know somebody that talks about look at all of this shit that I've been through.

00:39:18.268 --> 00:39:20.092
You don't have to muscle through it.

00:39:20.092 --> 00:39:24.371
There's no award at the end that says like oh, you, you, you know, you made it through.

00:39:24.371 --> 00:39:32.853
You wrecked your entire fucking family because they don't know which version of dad they're going to get coming home because you didn't know how to handle your emotions for stuff.

00:39:33.233 --> 00:39:37.500
You and your profession happen to deal with a lot more shit than regular people do.

00:39:37.500 --> 00:39:42.615
But just in in regular life, like people don't realize they think they're holding it together.

00:39:42.615 --> 00:39:45.612
What do you think that does for the wife or the kids?

00:39:45.612 --> 00:39:47.721
The dad that's holding it all together?

00:39:47.721 --> 00:39:52.398
He's not holding it together, he's an asshole, right, like you're a complete asshole.

00:39:52.398 --> 00:39:59.952
No offense to you specifically but but that's what that looks like, you know, and so it's like that's what you think is the way to do.

00:39:59.952 --> 00:40:02.224
That is, we're going to be a tough guy and not talk about stuff.

00:40:02.224 --> 00:40:08.489
But then your wife doesn't know what the fuck's happening in your life and your kids are afraid of you and don't know which version they're going to get of you.

00:40:08.489 --> 00:40:13.155
I've watched it happen in my own household, right, I mean growing up, and in my own household.

00:40:13.155 --> 00:40:15.378
Because we don't deal with that.

00:40:15.378 --> 00:40:17.880
We don't encourage men to deal with their shit or to talk about it.

00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:21.393
So it's like if you looked at that and you said these are your options.

00:40:21.393 --> 00:40:30.286
You can either have someone that's going to speak about their shit and deal with it as it comes up, or you're going to have mystery dad who you're not sure what you're going to get.

00:40:30.286 --> 00:40:32.949
That should say everything you need to know.

00:40:32.949 --> 00:40:36.550
You don't want to be that person to your kids, right?

00:40:36.550 --> 00:40:38.672
You don't want to be saddled up next to that guy.

00:40:38.672 --> 00:40:40.773
We do it, we all do it, right?

00:40:40.773 --> 00:40:46.018
That's why it's so important to raise our boys in a different way now, no matter what age that looks like.

00:40:46.097 --> 00:40:50.400
Right, like I look at the impact that I've had on my son and on my daughters.

00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:53.902
Right, because I didn't show emotion until I got sober when I was 40.

00:40:53.902 --> 00:41:00.170
So I raised up to 20-year-olds with don't be emotional.

00:41:00.170 --> 00:41:01.335
That's a sign of weakness.

00:41:01.335 --> 00:41:01.757
Right.

00:41:01.757 --> 00:41:06.914
Now I'm paying for it because now I've got to come on this show and show all the vulnerability.

00:41:06.914 --> 00:41:14.826
I am fine to do that because that's part of my mission now, but that's what it is for everybody.

00:41:14.826 --> 00:41:21.960
We're supposed to show emotion, we're supposed to show each other, you know, and now, being able to like heal in front of my kids they have a front row seat to that.

00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:29.666
Yes, they're having to undo some of the programming and the messed up stuff that I handed to them, but thank God you know, I look at my.

00:41:29.826 --> 00:41:35.409
I have an 18 year old son who is the most emotionally intelligent man I've ever met, right, and I love that.

00:41:35.409 --> 00:41:43.034
I love that my husband allows you know, allows this and is like coming along with cause I've been planting seeds for years, you know.

00:41:43.034 --> 00:41:44.777
It's like it actually feels pretty cool.

00:41:44.777 --> 00:41:49.400
It's pretty good to be able to say God, you know, get curious about why did that make me feel that way?

00:41:49.400 --> 00:41:50.581
What am I going to do with that?

00:41:50.581 --> 00:41:50.981
You know?

00:41:50.981 --> 00:41:53.222
Yeah, tell me about.

00:41:53.222 --> 00:42:00.231
I read in your questionnaire that you had a journey with ketamine.

00:42:00.231 --> 00:42:00.393
Are you?

00:42:00.393 --> 00:42:01.197
Will you share some of that with me?

00:42:01.197 --> 00:42:02.563
Because I think that's one of the things that I haven't tried.

00:42:02.563 --> 00:42:05.869
I'm always the cannonballer, so I'm like, all right, let me try all of these things.

00:42:05.869 --> 00:42:10.094
You know, that is one I haven't done, but I've done all sorts of other things.

00:42:10.094 --> 00:42:10.434
It's.

00:42:10.434 --> 00:42:12.438
I've talked to people that have shared that.

00:42:12.438 --> 00:42:14.501
That's very helpful for them it was very helpful.

00:42:14.581 --> 00:42:15.342
It was one of the.

00:42:15.342 --> 00:42:24.753
I will say it was the most amazing thing I've ever done and also the most horrifying thing at the same time, and a lot of things that I'm going to say about it you're not going to really understand.

00:42:24.753 --> 00:42:34.097
But, um, so there's a local organization, the arizona hunter club phenomenal, phenomenal organization.

00:42:34.097 --> 00:42:38.695
They help pay for mental health stuff for first responders.

00:42:38.695 --> 00:42:39.798
Um.

00:42:39.798 --> 00:42:43.608
So there was a ketamine clinic in the valley in scottsdale that was doing a trial.

00:42:43.608 --> 00:42:49.425
They wanted 30 first responders to start it, um, and see some of the results they get.

00:42:49.425 --> 00:42:50.007
So I was part.

00:42:50.007 --> 00:42:54.072
I was asked if I wanted to be part of that 30 and I really didn't want to.

00:42:54.072 --> 00:42:59.045
You know, I still was kind of in that mindset of firemen police officers.

00:42:59.045 --> 00:43:00.250
We live in worst case scenario.

00:43:00.490 --> 00:43:01.655
So the worst is always going to happen.

00:43:03.425 --> 00:43:04.648
I never did drugs.

00:43:04.648 --> 00:43:13.637
I was not a big drinker, I didn't really want to do it, but I thought I might as well try it because one all these people that have helped me asked me to try it.

00:43:13.637 --> 00:43:14.487
I might as well do it.

00:43:14.487 --> 00:43:20.559
So I go in and um, my first three sessions were like horrifying.00:43:20.559 --> 00:43:34.351


And these docs, like they have it down to a science, they know for the most part how things are going to be and they told me sessions one and two are going to be your past sessions, three and four are going to be your present and five and six are going to be your past sessions.00:43:34.351 --> 00:43:36.400


Three and four are going to be your present and five and six are going to be your future.00:43:36.420 --> 00:43:45.190


So I remember going into my first one it could have been my first or second session like I had like a slideshow of all these calls that I have not thought about ever again.00:43:45.190 --> 00:43:49.827


You know I I remembered my very first gunshot wound as a probationary fireman.00:43:49.827 --> 00:44:03.414


I haven't thought of that call in, you know, 17 years at the time, and but I remember seeing slideshow after slideshow of all these horrific scenes and I remember thinking to myself in it like this is too much for you, gary.00:44:03.414 --> 00:44:04.945


This is just too much for you to see.00:44:04.945 --> 00:44:15.141


This is too much for anybody to see, you know, and I remember thinking like I don't need to see this anymore, like I've been there, done that, I don't need to see that kind of stuff anymore.00:44:15.141 --> 00:44:19.376


And I remember getting angry during my session.00:44:19.376 --> 00:44:24.597


You have 100% control over yourself, but I remember getting angry, thinking like why did I get?00:44:24.597 --> 00:44:25.501


How did I get here?00:44:25.501 --> 00:44:28.838


Why didn't I know that this was a possibility of getting here?00:44:29.079 --> 00:44:44.192


You know, so I had those and I don't even can't recall right now the two middle ones, but it was my fifth one going into, my fifth one, the docs.00:44:44.192 --> 00:44:46.940


They're like, hey, do you want to go to outer space?00:44:46.940 --> 00:44:48.577


And I'm like, oh crap, what are you talking?00:44:48.577 --> 00:44:50.195


About Like am I going to go there?00:44:50.195 --> 00:44:52.818


The room was called the outer space room.00:44:53.150 --> 00:44:55.152


So I was like OK, that's why you're saying it Now.00:44:55.152 --> 00:44:57.356


This time the first four you're in a recliner.00:44:57.356 --> 00:44:58.697


They start the IV.00:44:58.697 --> 00:44:59.518


They slowly push it.00:44:59.518 --> 00:45:03.284


You're listening to these sounds in your ears, you're blacked out.00:45:03.284 --> 00:45:09.871


You can't see anything but the fifth one.00:45:09.871 --> 00:45:15.201


Now you're in a bed and the bed vibrates to the sounds in your ears and I remember the doctor telling me Gary, I think you're going to like this one, but I'm still.00:45:15.201 --> 00:45:16.804


I have no idea what to expect.00:45:17.751 --> 00:45:24.998


And during my fifth one, right off the bat, as soon as they start pushing it, I think I passed away and I think I died, you know.00:45:24.998 --> 00:45:37.106


And it's to the point where I am crying Like I have never cried before in my life because I was never going to see them again, you know, and I felt 2 million miles away.00:45:37.106 --> 00:45:43.157


And being 2 million miles away is telling me you are too far gone to return.00:45:43.157 --> 00:45:44.440


There's no returning in this.00:45:44.440 --> 00:45:56.538


So I went for about 30 minutes just bawling my eyes out, knowing that I was going to heaven, that I had passed away, and they put this little button on your chest to where, if you want them to come in, you can press this button.00:45:56.538 --> 00:46:04.637


So at the same time that I think I'm dead and 2 million miles away, I still know to press this button to have them come in.00:46:04.637 --> 00:46:06.692


So they came in and they said did you press the button?00:46:06.692 --> 00:46:07.655


I said yeah, am I okay?00:46:07.655 --> 00:46:09.561


And they said yeah, you're perfectly fine.00:46:09.561 --> 00:46:11.382


And I said okay.00:46:11.382 --> 00:46:13.043


And they said, can we restart the infusion?00:46:13.043 --> 00:46:14.003


And I said yeah, go ahead.00:46:14.003 --> 00:46:22.947


Boom, I'm dead again, 2 million miles away, and I'm thinking she's in the waiting room, she's going to see Scottsdale fire come in here and they're going to start CPR any second Cause I am dead.00:46:24.411 --> 00:46:32.054


It was the most amazing experience I've ever felt in my life because when it was said and done, they docs did not come in right away Like they typically do.00:46:32.054 --> 00:46:34.119


They let me sit there and take it in a little bit longer.00:46:34.119 --> 00:46:36.923


And they came in and I said that was fucking amazing.00:46:36.923 --> 00:46:40.936


And they said we told you you were going to like this one and they knew I was going to die.00:46:40.936 --> 00:46:49.201


And they said typically people die on their fifth one and the people that fight the medicine will not have that same experience.00:46:50.951 --> 00:46:56.300


Well, part of ketamine with this specific clinic and I think this is the most important part it comes with a ketamine coach.00:46:56.300 --> 00:46:58.496


They're not in the facility with you.00:46:58.496 --> 00:46:59.916


I'm in the room all by myself.00:46:59.916 --> 00:47:02.277


I talk to them the very next day.00:47:02.277 --> 00:47:06.034


I write down everything that I can remember and I told this lady.00:47:06.034 --> 00:47:10.719


I said I died in it and I said it was the most amazing thing I've ever experienced.00:47:10.719 --> 00:47:19.934


I felt so at peace and she said that was the death of your ego and without her I wouldn't have known that.00:47:19.934 --> 00:47:20.135


You know.00:47:20.155 --> 00:47:26.713


Um, I went in to ketamine as a fucked up fireman and I came out a husband, a father, a brother, a son.00:47:26.713 --> 00:47:31.802


I just so happened to be trained a fireman and it messed with me.00:47:31.802 --> 00:47:32.623


That's totally fine.00:47:32.623 --> 00:47:48.661


Like I totally switched my priorities in life to where, up until that point, my priority was being a fireman and I need to be ready to be, go back to work, and if that means my first day off, I need to rest because we were up all night.00:47:48.661 --> 00:47:51.918


My second day off, I need to rest because I go back to work tomorrow.00:47:51.918 --> 00:47:57.085


They were second, but that switched it to where now they're.00:47:57.105 --> 00:48:11.512


They're going to be first and that's going to come when it comes you know, no longer is that my priority, um, but the call that took me over, that broke the camel's back, never came up, so I had dealt with that with emdr.00:48:11.512 --> 00:48:14.818


Um the my sixth session.00:48:14.818 --> 00:48:21.800


I was hoping to go in and die again, because it was the most amazing thing and I go in there and it was about me and her.00:48:21.800 --> 00:48:30.592


So they were right one and two are your past, three and four are your present, five and six are your future and, like number six was just like thank god, I have her, you know.00:48:30.592 --> 00:48:34.257


So, yeah, it was the most amazing thing.00:48:34.257 --> 00:48:35.619


And we talk about EMDR.00:48:35.701 --> 00:48:38.244


I view ketamine as EMDR 2.0.00:48:38.244 --> 00:48:44.570


Like, you go into EMDR knowing, hey, I have this call that I need to deal with Ketamine.00:48:44.570 --> 00:48:47.391


You have no idea which one you're going to deal with, right, you know.00:48:47.391 --> 00:48:53.878


So it's maybe your subconscious that you don't even know is still there taking up room not filed away properly.00:48:53.878 --> 00:49:04.791


Ketamine allowed all these extra calls that I had no idea to be filed away properly and, um, I told them there at the clinic like you guys need to take this to disneyland.00:49:04.791 --> 00:49:08.420


It was the most amazing ride I have ever been on.00:49:08.420 --> 00:49:12.420


Yeah, you know, and I still, to this day, don't do marijuana.00:49:12.420 --> 00:49:13.362


I don't do any drugs.00:49:13.362 --> 00:49:16.456


I would do ketamine in a heartbeat, only in that setting.00:49:16.630 --> 00:49:16.851


Yeah.00:49:17.010 --> 00:49:17.271


Never.00:49:17.914 --> 00:49:18.094


Right.00:49:18.094 --> 00:49:26.612


No, I understand exactly what you're talking about, but it is like that's powerful shit, like I went down to Costa Rica and did ayahuasca and same thing death of my ego and I.00:49:27.454 --> 00:49:31.311


I'm a completely different person from one side of that to the other in the best possible way.00:49:31.311 --> 00:49:33.677


Right, I realized it's not about me, right?00:49:33.677 --> 00:49:44.277


That's the whole ego personality that we feed, that in general, most people's are just completely out of control, right?00:49:44.277 --> 00:49:47.170


And so to be able to really kind of put that into check and to understand what you're important you know what's important to you.00:49:47.472 --> 00:49:57.599


Yeah, and you know, it's so like we had a workbook we had to write down our notes and then having the ketamine coach, like I said, without the ketamine coach I would not have known it was the death of my ego.00:49:57.599 --> 00:50:01.592


And you know, to this day shame still kicks in every now and then, you know.00:50:01.592 --> 00:50:10.800


But I have to remember what I wrote down, what's important to me, what's best for me and her and my kids and my family, not what's best for anybody else.00:50:10.800 --> 00:50:12.472


You know, this is my priority.00:50:12.472 --> 00:50:23.902


So I still have to remind myself that, you know, and remind myself that when the mental health stuff, that shame starts kicking in a little bit too, you know.00:50:23.902 --> 00:50:33.213


But I would say the overall going through all of that, the ketamine, the counseling, has made me a better person today.00:50:33.715 --> 00:50:45.922


You know the person that I want to be, you know so ketamine I think saved our marriage, but I think it saved his life I believe that.00:50:45.922 --> 00:50:57.659


I believe that one thing he didn't mention is that he was suicidal yeah and I remember that fifth treatment, because I took him to every single treatment.00:50:57.829 --> 00:50:58.715


We're sitting in the truck.00:50:58.715 --> 00:51:00.996


I would get him a coffee.00:51:00.996 --> 00:51:04.500


So he had his coffee and he's like let's just sit here for a minute.00:51:04.500 --> 00:51:11.402


So we're sitting, I'm looking at him and I could see in his eyes like there was light.00:51:11.402 --> 00:51:21.972


It wasn't as dark as it had been for so long and I remember just thinking like this was the one, this one saved him.00:51:21.972 --> 00:51:25.137


It was so crazy.00:51:26.398 --> 00:51:34.492


Um, and since the ketamine I feel like our relationship has been a thousand times better.00:51:34.492 --> 00:52:05.619


Um, we've been able to talk to our kids about all of this and kind of apologize for all the fucked up shit that we did to them and you know all of the hurt that we caused them, even though we weren't trying to do that like just the unknown and try to repair those relationships and now trying to help them you know my son don't repeat these things.00:52:05.619 --> 00:52:07.423


Go to, you know, do all the things.00:52:07.423 --> 00:52:20.192


And my daughter struggles with anxiety really bad, and I feel so responsible for that because it didn't start until we separated and so she still has those symptoms.00:52:20.192 --> 00:52:22.376


We actually had her do ketamine.00:52:22.376 --> 00:52:28.896


I did ketamine because I have my own trauma yeah sure, um, but, and.00:52:29.257 --> 00:52:39.010


and I went into ketamine hoping I had that same experience that Gary had, um, but the doctors ended up telling me you didn't need the death of your ego.00:52:39.010 --> 00:52:40.974


Your family has always come first.00:52:40.974 --> 00:52:46.971


So it was very eye opening for me because I always felt.00:52:46.971 --> 00:52:51.898


Second, he was a firefighter before he was anything else.00:52:51.898 --> 00:53:04.945


He would give 110% at work and come home and give shit Whatever was left over, and I just kept taking it and taking it because I just had this idea of family.00:53:05.972 --> 00:53:06.715


It was me and my mom.00:53:06.715 --> 00:53:08.869


I didn't want my kids to have a broken family.00:53:08.869 --> 00:53:14.635


I'm going to work as hard as I can to keep this marriage, whatever that looks like.00:53:14.635 --> 00:53:19.661


I gave all of myself and I always felt it was never good enough.00:53:19.661 --> 00:53:34.938


But once he did the ketamine, it's crazy how fast our marriage switched, because he now viewed us as first and that's all I ever prayed for.00:53:35.949 --> 00:53:38.177


Like I just want to be.00:53:38.177 --> 00:53:40.512


You know that I want to be that person.00:53:40.512 --> 00:53:41.675


I want to be number one.00:53:41.675 --> 00:53:43.059


I'm tired of being second.00:53:43.059 --> 00:53:45.333


I'm tired of feeling like shit all the time.00:53:45.333 --> 00:53:47.157


I'm tired of this marriage.00:53:47.157 --> 00:53:48.219


Do I want to fight for it?00:53:48.219 --> 00:53:49.242


Do I want to leave?00:53:49.242 --> 00:53:51.914


Yeah, like you know what's best for my kids.00:53:51.914 --> 00:53:53.356


This isn't good for my kids.00:53:53.356 --> 00:54:00.735


But what you know it was, it was a lot of years of just struggling with what, what do I?00:54:00.735 --> 00:54:02.320


What do I do?00:54:02.320 --> 00:54:06.811


Right, I don't want to hurt my kids, but I feel like we're hurting them.00:54:06.811 --> 00:54:11.800


Staying together, um, but that ketamine, I could see it, I knew.00:54:11.800 --> 00:54:13.023


I knew in my heart.00:54:13.023 --> 00:54:16.398


I, when I saw the light in his eye, I, I was like this was it.00:54:16.398 --> 00:54:18.155


Yeah, things are going to change.00:54:18.949 --> 00:54:19.914


Well, it's so powerful too.00:54:19.914 --> 00:54:28.663


You mentioned that you were talking with your kids and really showing your kids and apologizing to your kids, taking accountability.00:54:28.663 --> 00:54:34.556


As we're raising kids and you guys were both young parents we're just doing the best that we can, right?00:54:34.556 --> 00:54:42.771


And if we aren't able to do that right, it just continues to perpetuate that.00:54:42.771 --> 00:54:43.614


Our kids are our biggest teachers in life.00:54:43.614 --> 00:54:44.175


Right, if you'll let them be.00:54:44.175 --> 00:54:49.663


Our egos get in the way a lot of times because we're supposed to be these big, tough people that don't need help from our children.00:54:49.663 --> 00:54:51.230


My kids are my biggest teachers.00:54:51.449 --> 00:55:02.376


But I also had the same thing where I really had to have a come to Jesus, where I realized my family always got the scraps of what was left over too, and I think what a shame and there's nothing I can do about it.00:55:02.376 --> 00:55:26.101


So I don't have guilt and shame associated with it, because to me that's garbage that you know, those are such low vibe emotions I'm not dragging through, but having that ability and, you know, being able to take accountability to your kiddos and show them that that's what we're supposed to do and then put them first instead of they get the crumbs that are left over when I'm done at the end of the day, right, I thought I was doing the right thing by.00:55:26.630 --> 00:55:30.570


I'm going to go out and make a bunch of money so that it you know, anytime they want something they can ask.00:55:30.570 --> 00:55:34.115


But I never paid full attention, right, I never was plugged into them.00:55:34.115 --> 00:55:35.958


It was always what am I doing over here?00:55:35.958 --> 00:55:43.577


And then I would get home at the end of the day and then give my scraps to my husband and my kids and I look back at that and it's just like god, I was out to lunch.00:55:43.938 --> 00:55:51.690


I was so fucking out to lunch, you know, and to be able to realize it doesn't have to be that way, right, look at all of this good that's come from that.00:55:51.690 --> 00:55:53.855


Look at all that's good that's come from that.00:55:53.855 --> 00:56:01.811


You know, you guys are able to be on the same team and be each other's champions, each other's cheerleaders, each other's talk about all the shit that's.00:56:01.811 --> 00:56:02.413


You know.00:56:02.413 --> 00:56:09.641


Then you have a partner in crime instead of I'm just going to carry all of this weight all by myself, because you look at it and you look at, what did that do to Wendy?00:56:09.641 --> 00:56:14.902


You didn't even realize when you were going through all of this that she was internalizing all of that and thinking it was her.00:56:14.981 --> 00:56:15.202


Right.00:56:15.302 --> 00:56:20.297


Right and beating herself up about not being everything that you needed, or whatever that looks like.00:56:20.297 --> 00:56:24.920


I look at my relationship with my husband and I think it's crazy because we talk about all the things right.00:56:24.920 --> 00:56:26.235


It hasn't always been like that.00:56:26.235 --> 00:56:29.059


Thank God that it is now, because I don't want to do it any other way.00:56:29.059 --> 00:56:40.998


I want to be able to my I didn't have a hundred percent to give today.00:56:40.998 --> 00:56:42.628


Or here are the things that I felt that I dealt with, or here are the things that I'm processing, or dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, whatever.00:56:42.628 --> 00:56:46.458


That's making me feel like you connect with another human being on a level that just blows my mind.00:56:46.458 --> 00:56:47.161


Right?00:56:47.161 --> 00:56:53.675


I'm I'm assuming you guys are experienced the same thing, because I don't want to have something that's going on that I'm not able to share with my partner.00:56:53.675 --> 00:56:54.936


I want to say all the things.00:56:55.277 --> 00:56:55.518


Right.00:56:56.059 --> 00:57:05.018


What do you do, gary, to kind of keep the, the, keep things in check, right, keep, keep your wellness and your mental health at the forefront.00:57:05.018 --> 00:57:10.181


Like, what are the things that you do now that you have your eyes open to all of the things?00:57:11.202 --> 00:57:17.019


So I still see my counselor, okay, maybe once a month, two times a month, it varies.00:57:17.019 --> 00:57:20.818


I wish I would have done that years ago, you know.00:57:20.818 --> 00:57:23.998


Another thing is like I was talking about the ketamine.00:57:23.998 --> 00:57:26.699


I remember that feeling and I remember what I wrote down.00:57:26.699 --> 00:57:38.552


I've got to remind myself, not that I have to remind myself that they're important, but when that ego starts creeping back in, okay, what's best for you, gary, what's best for your family, I have to remind myself of that.00:57:38.552 --> 00:57:42.561


Um, I have to know my boundaries too, you know.00:57:42.721 --> 00:57:51.371


So I enjoy talking about firefighter mental health, but I can't do it every day, you know, and I have to set that aside too.00:57:51.371 --> 00:57:56.221


Um, so, yeah, I talk with her.00:57:56.221 --> 00:58:05.056


She's really big now into First responder mental health, you know, for the new department that she's working for, pushing a lot of stuff for them.00:58:05.056 --> 00:58:15.056


So, you know, I go to the gym now, to where I worked out prior to all this, but that is my time to go in and shut my mind off, you know.00:58:15.056 --> 00:58:17.349


And so, like I make that a priority for myself.00:58:18.452 --> 00:58:27.112


Um, we try to eat better, just everything you know, so yeah yeah, it's, it's important because we do, we lose sight of it.00:58:27.112 --> 00:58:37.373


You have to be vigilant about staying on top of it, because I can feel that the ego start to creep into, like and and also just not taking care of myself in all of the ways If I start feeling off.00:58:37.373 --> 00:58:39.778


I have a checklist of am I journaling?00:58:39.778 --> 00:58:42.034


Am I, you know, have I been doing these things?00:58:42.034 --> 00:58:48.197


Whatever it is that kind of makes you, um, feel like yourself, because it gets out of check quickly.00:58:48.197 --> 00:58:53.320


So, um, thank you guys for coming today and sharing, uh, your story.00:58:53.320 --> 00:58:58.432


Uh, we're coming to the end of our time, but powerful conversation, powerful conversation.00:58:58.833 --> 00:58:59.677


Thanks for having us.00:58:59.697 --> 00:59:01.402


Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.00:59:01.402 --> 00:59:04.177


So that's our time for today.00:59:04.177 --> 00:59:10.076


Please do all the things to support the pod rate review share.00:59:10.076 --> 00:59:15.998


If you have suggestions or questions, our email address is ladies at letsgetnakedpodcastcom.00:59:15.998 --> 00:59:18.016


We will catch you next week.00:59:18.016 --> 00:59:18.818


That's a wrap.00:59:18.818 --> 00:59:27.994


I'd love to help you get vulnerable.00:59:27.994 --> 00:59:29.076


Let's get naked.