What Happens When We Finally Speak Up?

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I'd love to help you get vulnerable.

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Let's get naked.

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Hey everyone, I'm Anne.

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Welcome to the let's Get Naked podcast, where we dive deep into vulnerability.

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In this space, we'll explore what triggers us, uncover the patterns holding us back and discover how to take charge of our own growth.

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If you're ready to dig in, be vulnerable and face the tough stuff, then buckle up.

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It's time to get naked.

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This is going to be a tough one.

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Today, you know what's been quietly tearing families apart for generations the belief that silence is safer than truth, that pretending everything is fine is more important than actually being fine.

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So many families have mastered the art of brushing things under the rug like it's some sacred tradition.

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We're taught not to rock the boat, not to bring up the past, not to talk about the things that actually hurt.

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Just keep the peace.

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Smile through the pain, stay quiet to avoid making anyone uncomfortable.

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But let's call that what it really is Emotional cowardice dressed up as family loyalty.

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The idea that silence somehow keeps the family strong is a lie.

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It doesn't protect anyone.

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It protects the dysfunction.

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It preserves cycles of shame, confusion and emotional distance.

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When someone is struggling with mental health, we look the other way.

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When someone is hurt, we say let it go, don't make a scene.

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When tension is obvious, we sweep it aside like it'll disappear if we ignore it long enough.

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But all that does is push the pain underground where it festers.

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That pain doesn't go away.

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It grows roots, it becomes patterns, it gets passed down generation after generation until someone finally says enough.

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Families that refuse to talk about hard things don't avoid damage, they cause it.

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Unspoken resentments turn into walls.

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Unacknowledged traumas show up in how people parent, how they communicate, how they handle stress.

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Kids grow up feeling the weight of things no one ever explained, carrying shame for things they didn't cause and learning to distrust their own emotions.

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Adults repeat patterns.

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They swore they wouldn't because no one ever showed them how to process what they were feeling.

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Silence doesn't make family stronger.

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It just makes the pain quieter until it explodes or calcifies into lifelong distance.

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But here's the truth.

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Families that are willing to have honest, uncomfortable conversations are the ones that actually thrive.

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When people feel safe to speak up, to ask questions, to name what hurt them without being shut down, that's where real connection happens.

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That's where healing starts.

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Those families raise people who aren't afraid of emotions.

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That's where real connection happens.

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That's where healing starts.

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Those families raise people who aren't afraid of emotions, who can name what they feel, who are more empathetic and resilient.

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They model accountability, not perfection.

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They show that love isn't about pretending everything is okay.

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It's about standing in the mess together and saying we'll figure this out.

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When families stop pretending and start talking, they break cycles.

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They allow space for forgiveness, for boundaries, for change.

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They grow deeper relationships, not just surface-level holiday interactions.

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They become places where vulnerability is met with care instead of criticism.

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And sure, those conversations are hard, they can be messy, awkward, emotional, but discomfort is not the enemy.

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Discomfort is a sign that something important is happening, that the surface is cracking open to make room for something more honest, more human and more healing.

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Open to make room for something more honest, more human and more healing.

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We need to stop romanticizing silence.

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We need to stop confusing avoidance with love.

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Real love faces the truth.

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Real love listens, apologizes, learns and grows.

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It doesn't sweep things under the rug.

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It picks up the rug, looks at the mess underneath and deals with it.

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Because we all deserve families where we can be fully seen and fully heard, not just tolerated when we're convenient.

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We deserve homes where healing is more important than image and we deserve the chance to build something better than the silence we inherited.

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It's time to stop pretending that silence is golden when it's really just heavy.

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We are done with a rug full of secrets.

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It's time to stop pretending that silence is golden when it's really just heavy.

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We are done with a rug full of secrets.

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Let's start flipping it over.

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Today I'm stripping it all off with Mark and his daughter Jackie.

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They are here today to be brave enough to look under the rug to talk about trauma that has occurred in their family and how they've handled it to date and ways to move forward towards healing.

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So welcome both of you to the show.

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I appreciate you both being here.

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Thank you.

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Yeah, I just want to say before we get started that the feedback that I have gotten from outside people, people that know me, people that don't know me about the podcast has been so positive and powerful that everyone is just so ready for these stories of the mess you know Because we can all relate to when we're listening to these about all the shit that happened that nobody talks about.

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You know, I talk to people all the time and it's like, oh, we don't talk about that in my family, and I understand that because I also came from a family you know, when I was growing up, that if you just don't talk about it, it's not there.

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But the problem is exactly what I was reading at the beginning it does fester and it does just come out sideways in ways that no one's proud of, you know.

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And so being able to be sitting on this couch, brave enough and willing to talk about all the gross shit right, I mean you even telling your story, story mark and having Jackie be able to listen to pieces that she maybe didn't know about, will help her have a better understanding of who you are as a person, not just her father, right, but as a man sitting here next to her.

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It allows her to be so proud of you for being able to share that right.

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Like I had a conversation with my dad, and not to hijack this whole thing, but I do just want to really quickly say I had a conversation with my dad.

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And not to hijack this whole thing, but I do just want to really quickly say I had a conversation with my dad this past weekend over Easter and he shared stuff with me about his childhood.

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I've never been more proud of that man in my life and he literally has done everything for our family.

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He was the rock of our family.

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But to have him say how that affected him when he had this happen or that happen or you know just feelings that he had towards other people in his family and things they didn't talk about, it blew my mind.

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You know, as I watch my husband do that in front of our children same right, like yes, great, he can do all of these great things that hold our family together.

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But being willing to be vulnerable and say this is what hurt me, this is how this happened, this is what I dealt with growing up and say the things right, we're not being quiet anymore, like that's my movement for stuff.

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We're saying all the things at full volume because we're not protecting anybody anymore and it doesn't have to come from this place of burning people down, but coming from a place of speaking your truth, owning your truth, saying your truth.

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It gives other people permission to be able to do that for themselves as well.

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So I just wanted to tell you guys so proud, so happy that you're here, and with that we're going to just kind of turn it over to Mark a little bit and, you know, let him share a little bit about his story growing up, what goes into the ingredients that make Mark the recipe that he is, and then Jackie's going to jump in and kind of tell some of her stuff as well.

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And just also, I think it's really important to highlight where you guys have failed with communication in your family, where you have room for improvement.

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You know we do that all the time at my house now, where there's nothing that's off limits.

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That was not always the case, you know, with my daughters and with everybody, there used to be all sorts of shit that was off limits.

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It was too uncomfortable, it was too.

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This, it was too that I will tell you after putting years into this, there's literally nothing in my house that's off limits.

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It's always a surprise.

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I'm never disappointed.

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You know, keeps things interesting, but the connections that I have with them, getting to do life with them in a way that's not just surface level bullshit, it's everything, it means everything.

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So I'm telling you the work is worth doing.

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So with that, mark, I'm going to turn it over to you and let you kind of share a little bit about who you are and how you got here.

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Thanks, anne.

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You know, and the lead is very appropriate because I think that is a very common issue with myself and, I think, with a lot of people, especially when you're dealing with multiple siblings, dealing with large families, as I have, my mom's, one of 14, roman Catholic dad, school principal, very well-educated family, I think.

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Three of her brothers have doctorates.

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Every one of them has a college degree, most of them master's degrees.

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My grandfather on my dad's side was also a high school principal.

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My dad was a schoolteacher, mom was a schoolteacher and there were very high expectations set for me from a very young age, both on the athletic side and on the education side.

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So I can remember my dad giving me a standardized math test before I was even in school.

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You know, age of five, six years old, I'm taking, you know, seventh, eighth grade math test.

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I'm doing calculus by the time I'm in sixth, seventh grade, type of thing.

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So you know just wanting me to be an overachiever in both education and in sports, because him and my grandfather both competed at sports at very high levels as well.

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So there was a lot of pressure put on me from a young age, however, not a lot of good guidance on how to get there.

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It's just get there, you figure it out.

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It's tough for a young man to have those types of expectations without any real guardrails or true guidance and goals of how to get there.

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As far as the we don't talk about things, definitely a big part of my growing up it was everything was very silent, everything was very keep it within the family, don't even talk.

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What is that?

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I get it.

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That same when you say keep it within the family.

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That sparked something for me, because that was very much like we don't talk about that, we don't want other people to know.

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And I'm thinking, was there like an award that we got if we kept it like all crazy, like tucked in?

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I don't remember seeing the award, but we did that where it was like don't say anything.

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And even within the family, like within your immediate family, like don't let grandma know, don't let so-and-so know.

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And I'm thinking these are people we're supposed to be doing life with.

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How?

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Why are we lying to people and like, oh, we're not going to say that, we're not going to say that, like what a bunch of bullshit I think even to this day it's a competitive thing when you have that many siblings with my mother.

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Okay, right, okay, that's a good perspective.

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Where?

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you have to be the perfect family and your shit cannot stink to the rest of your brothers and sisters.

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Because you're the best, because you are winning at life.

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That's an interesting perspective.

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I appreciate you saying that I'm going to have to unpack that one a little bit, because that lands You're absolutely right.

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No, no, we've got it all the picture that we send on the Christmas card.

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That's really what we're doing behind the scenes as well.

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It's not just a Christmas card, even though we all know that's bullshit, but okay okay, so it's always the perfect family, right.

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Everybody's succeeding, everybody's so smart, everybody's so smart, everybody's so great.

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And I get that to this day, even though I don't really have a relationship with my family, which we'll get into later.

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My mother, even to this day, is in that competition stage with her siblings, and we'll talk about that a little bit.

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At my father's funeral I attended in October, which was a surprise too, which we will talk about.

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But that was tough for me because I not only saw that, heard that, I felt I had to live, that I had to fit those expectations of being the perfect child, of excelling at everything, at doing what I had to do, with little or no parental guidance there.

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Did you pass that down?

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And let me ask Jackie that, before you, let me ask you first Do you think you passed that down?

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Oh yes.

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Would you agree with that?

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Yeah, I'd agree.

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Yeah, I mean, growing up they had expectations for us, obviously, and those expectations were clear, but there wasn't much guidance on how to reach those expectations.

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Isn't that funny For me, when I sit and talk to my daughter specifically about the shit that I passed down to her, I look, as you're doing inventory on kind of what happened in your life and like, oh God, that was so fucked up.

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And then I look and I go, I just passed that right on down.

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Right, didn't even realize, right, which is what's so cool about knowing better, doing better, and the fact that we're sitting here having this conversation and that there are people that can listen that go, I'm doing the same fucking thing.

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You know, when my brother came on and he was talking about the shit that he got passed down from my parents and he's like he didn't even realize.

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It was like an aha moment on the couch of.

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I'm doing the exact same thing to my son that I'm now, as an adult, trying to heal from because it was so damaging to me.

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I'm handing the exact same thing down because that behavior is modeled to you and it doesn't even occur to you.

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It's like that's how you know to do and so you just pass it right on down.

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They fucked me up without me realizing it, and I'm fucking my kids up without even realizing it.

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Do you know that they didn't realize that, though, because that's the biggest part of it, I think, for me is being able to realize and show them grace in that whole situation, because they're just doing the best that they can too, and I know that that's maybe a little bit further down the line when there's a lot of resentment and hurt feelings towards stuff, but they didn't know any better either.

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They knew less than we did, right, they had less knowledge at their fingertips than we do.

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To a degree.

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No, all the way.

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Think about this.

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Think about your parents didn't have the internet, so if they were going to speak with someone, get knowledge about something, they had to find someone that had either done that or knew someone that had done that and was willing to talk about it.

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And we know no one was willing to talk about it.

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So literally you've got your parents who are going in blind, unless you think your parents are complete psychopaths, which you know.

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We'll get into that.

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We'll get into that Maybe.

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I'm not suggesting either way.

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I don't know the whole story, but I will say like for me that was a big step in my healing is really being able to show my parents grace because they fucked all sorts of stuff up Right, and I'll say that to their face and they and they'll tell me and all of the different things.

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But the cool thing about it is having the perspective from the other side of it and I think this conversation with you and Jackie here, where you can understand her perspective or she can understand your perspective, when you start to be able to gain that knowledge by just going on this exploration of your family and all of the gross stuff that lives under the surface and being willing to talk about how did that make you feel?

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Where were you coming from in this?

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This is how I read this Like when you're able to do all of that, if you want her to show you grace, I will encourage you to show your parents grace, not to them, you don't have to fucking do that to them just inside of you.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Like just inside of you, of your mom had how many kids you were one of how many?

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Three, okay, so she had three kids.

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That in a time where she didn't have choices.

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If you look at women back in that time, I guarantee you your mom didn't have choices.

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Women didn't, right.

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So think about no knowledge just with the shit that she was passed down, no choices right Now she's, you know, however old she is.

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It's not like she's going to do the work.

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That's on our generations now to do this work, but she was literally just doing the best that she could.

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Right, she has all of the same components that you do with the feelings and the hurt and the not talking about shit and the pushing stuff under the rug I got you there.

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I better come in and start doing some exercises with this.

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Okay, we're going to stop talking right there.

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Let's back to you, Mark.

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God, mark.

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Well, so then, as you know, as I grow older and my my father was a school teacher and he was a coach and he was my coach and he was my teacher all through high school.

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New dynamic there, right?

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Oh, I mean incredibly rough front of the class, taking Calc one, taking Calc two in high school.

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You know, having to deal with that type of pressure being on the teams with him, you know, I remember I came down in practice one time, turned my ankle around backwards.

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I knew it was broke.

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He's like walk it off, you're fine, you know that type of thing, right?

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I mean, and I'm like, no, this is broken.

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He's like no, you're fine, I get home, the thing's like a softball, you know, finally went to the hospital.

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It was broke.

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But you know those types of things.

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It's like, you know, rub dirt on it Doesn't work, right, but he didn't know from that generation.

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Right, you're supposed to be tough, you're supposed to walk things off.

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Um, which can I jump in?

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really fast there, cause that was just an aha moment for me because they did the exact same thing to me anytime.

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I broke a bone, yeah, like I broke my, broke my foot really bad in high school, yeah, and I drove myself home from where I had broken it and I sit on the couch and he goes it's not broken, I know, it's fine, it's totally fine.

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He didn't in his defense.

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He doesn't even know which is crazy, which is why it's so important to talk about it, because it's like he's sitting here understanding the impact of that on him, that his dad was like, don't be a pussy, rub some dirt on it, we're gonna fucking be fine.

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And then he does the exact same thing to you, even though he knows I mean you know now what that did for you.

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You can look at that and go god, that was so damaging to me as a young boy, right like for me.

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I look back and it's like when I there's something to me about looking back at an eight-year-old boy Eight-year-old is what comes to my head when I think about just the innocence of a child going back to that place you shouldn't be dealing with.

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Don't be a pussy.

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You can't cry, don't show your emotions.

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Think about how that sets you up for success in life, about, like, don't pay attention to your emotions.

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Again, they didn't know.

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They literally just were passing down what they were taught.

00:18:26.250 --> 00:18:38.147
But I look at that as we know more and as we develop ourselves emotionally and as we have all of this knowledge now, and I think it's like putting a brick on your head energetically and then you pass that brick on to her.

00:18:38.288 --> 00:18:42.587
Yeah, yeah, and you know the other thing was they were both working or going to school or doing whatever.

00:18:42.587 --> 00:18:45.619
So you know the other thing was they were both working or going to school or doing whatever.

00:18:45.619 --> 00:18:48.750
So you know it's I'm left on my own to get ready in the morning.

00:18:48.750 --> 00:18:57.234
We didn't have a lot of money so I didn't wear the nicest clothes, even though I went to very expensive schools because of where they taught and stuff like that.

00:18:57.234 --> 00:19:00.404
So there was always a standard I had to keep up with.

00:19:00.404 --> 00:19:10.407
It was very difficult for me growing up of not being one of the rich kids, even though I was a popular kid, and not having the right clothes and everything else.

00:19:10.407 --> 00:19:15.867
So you know, to this day my wife gives me crap because I have about 60 pairs of shoes, maybe more.

00:19:15.867 --> 00:19:24.412
Now I have two thirds of my closet is my clothes, plus the office is full of my clothes.

00:19:24.992 --> 00:19:31.569
so you know, I love this, I love this admission right now yes, I have.

00:19:31.710 --> 00:19:34.825
I have way too many clothes, I even have but isn't that funny that that was.

00:19:35.105 --> 00:19:44.202
You know where that stemmed from I know where that you know exactly what it stemmed from, so it's crazy, like the the what that, what that kind of an impact has on who you are as a human being.

00:19:44.202 --> 00:19:46.750
You're almost 60 old and it literally is all the way through.

00:19:47.340 --> 00:19:50.105
The people at the office are like I wonder what shirt you're going to wear for your birthday.

00:19:50.105 --> 00:19:51.150
Come on, surprise us.

00:19:51.150 --> 00:19:54.470
I always try to wear something different to the office every single day.

00:19:55.382 --> 00:19:56.707
I always wear a nice suit.

00:19:56.707 --> 00:19:58.942
So the one kid God bless him.

00:19:58.942 --> 00:20:09.182
He just started and he says I was going to wear a suit but I didn't have time to go get a good suit and I wasn't wearing men's warehouse with you here and I go.

00:20:09.182 --> 00:20:10.028
You didn't even know me and he goes.

00:20:10.028 --> 00:20:13.268
Your reputation was before you and I wasn't walking in with a men's warehouse suit.

00:20:13.500 --> 00:20:14.952
It's deep ingrained shit.

00:20:15.054 --> 00:20:17.122
It's bad, it's crazy, like when you're a kid and you don't.

00:20:17.122 --> 00:20:17.942
I understand.

00:20:17.982 --> 00:20:19.285
I was raised poor too.

00:20:19.285 --> 00:20:24.692
You're trying to keep up with something that is not attainable when you don't have any fucking money.

00:20:24.913 --> 00:20:25.473
You know what I mean.

00:20:25.473 --> 00:20:26.615
I know, but it's still it's.

00:20:26.615 --> 00:20:28.644
I've got enough clothes for a small country.

00:20:28.644 --> 00:20:30.891
Now, okay, I mean I really do Okay.

00:20:31.259 --> 00:20:33.403
So how were your parents then growing up?

00:20:33.403 --> 00:20:37.811
As far as you know, fostering emotional intelligence.

00:20:37.932 --> 00:20:38.713
Nothing, oh nothing.

00:20:38.713 --> 00:20:42.200
I mean it was void, Okay, Completely void.

00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:50.747
It was void, Okay, Completely void, and it was almost as if at times, with my dad working two jobs, being a teacher and everything, and it was a.

00:20:50.747 --> 00:21:01.256
I'll spend time with you if you need help in sports or in school, but outside of that, we'll take the family vacations to keep up the look at us.

00:21:01.256 --> 00:21:19.968
We're the perfect little family and I think they tried to be good parents, but they didn't really know how to really develop that emotional side of me, that understanding side of me, that self-awareness that you need that goal planning.

00:21:19.968 --> 00:21:22.686
You know it's like you need to be here, but we're not.

00:21:22.686 --> 00:21:28.907
We don't know how to get there and we don't know how to guide you there, but just get there and that's our expectation.

00:21:29.019 --> 00:21:31.829
But do you see, how can you look at that from the outside?

00:21:31.829 --> 00:21:41.050
So now we've talked a little bit about the things that you've passed down to Jackie and her brother that you didn't know, right, that you did the best that you could with what you had, right?

00:21:41.050 --> 00:21:50.105
Yeah, can you see how impactful it would be if you were able to do that work, to understand that with your parents?

00:21:50.105 --> 00:21:52.792
Right, because I don't believe that you think they're psychopaths.

00:21:53.080 --> 00:22:10.885
I believe that maybe they've done some things, because we'll get there, I know, but here's the whole thing, that I want to just point out to you, because I'm always going to play the devil's advocate on this one because I know what it felt like prior to giving my parents grace and I know what it feels like after giving my parents grace and again, it doesn't necessarily have to be to them, it's just internally inside of me.

00:22:10.885 --> 00:22:22.386
But when I did that, when I had this aha moment where I was expecting my daughters to be able to show me grace for how I fucked them up but I couldn't show my mom grace, that was a powerful thing for me, right?

00:22:22.386 --> 00:22:30.521
Because as soon as I was able to like, switch that and do that work, the floodgates opened with my daughter showing me grace, not because they saw me even doing that.

00:22:30.521 --> 00:22:40.640
It was almost like the universe just having this understanding of like, okay, she's ready to see the other side of that, because you talk about okay, yes, they didn't have the knowledge.

00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:41.862
They gave you what they could.

00:22:41.862 --> 00:22:48.071
They were working two jobs to put food on the table and handing down the things that they could, that they knew to hand down.

00:22:48.071 --> 00:22:50.082
They didn't know the rest of it.

00:22:50.102 --> 00:22:53.194
So if you can say, I believe that they did the best that they could.

00:22:53.194 --> 00:22:56.425
Inherently, I think everyone does the best that they can with what they have.

00:22:56.425 --> 00:22:59.381
Obviously, we know better If I look back at the Ann from 10 years ago.

00:22:59.381 --> 00:23:02.365
Jesus Christ, she didn't know better.

00:23:02.365 --> 00:23:03.426
She didn't know better.

00:23:03.426 --> 00:23:08.354
Right In that moment, I did everything that I could to try to be the best version of myself that I could.

00:23:08.354 --> 00:23:09.174
Is it better now?

00:23:09.174 --> 00:23:09.976
Absolutely.

00:23:09.976 --> 00:23:17.067
I think if you're doing it right, you should be able to look back over a year and go, wow, look at all this improvements that I've made, because we're supposed to work on ourselves in that way.

00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:28.967
But you know, showing your parents grace for that, just a little nugget, I'm just planting a little seed mark.

00:23:28.967 --> 00:23:34.198
Totally over the last five years I wish I had had the insight, the owning my shit yeah, all of that, yeah, I wish I'd had that back in my teens.

00:23:34.198 --> 00:23:36.884
Instead, I get it in my 50s, right.

00:23:37.385 --> 00:23:38.548
But I got it.

00:23:38.667 --> 00:23:43.923
At least I got it before it's too late, yeah right, I hope that I'm helping with them.

00:23:43.923 --> 00:23:46.690
We'll see, she'll tell you.

00:23:46.710 --> 00:23:48.073
We'll do an exit interview tomorrow.

00:23:48.073 --> 00:23:48.493
We will.

00:23:48.493 --> 00:23:49.685
That's an exit interview, yeah.

00:23:50.299 --> 00:23:53.528
But then the childhood turns into a.

00:23:53.528 --> 00:24:03.833
You know, I went to a school you're well familiar with it's a very you know at the time probably the best high school in the country, one of the best.

00:24:03.833 --> 00:24:08.471
Most of them went to Ivy League that you graduate from there.

00:24:08.471 --> 00:24:12.669
So my mother went back to school to get her master's degree.

00:24:12.669 --> 00:24:17.008
My sophomore year, the end of my sophomore year, she leaves the house.

00:24:17.008 --> 00:24:22.269
She just up and moves out, doesn't say goodbye, nothing, just leaves the whole family.

00:24:22.329 --> 00:24:23.152
Sophomore high school.

00:24:23.573 --> 00:24:28.505
Sophomore in high school, after 20 years of marriage, gone for the summer.

00:24:28.505 --> 00:24:30.769
Dad doesn't know why.

00:24:30.769 --> 00:24:34.982
Ryan, that's about the only emotion I ever saw from the guy.

00:24:34.982 --> 00:24:35.965
He was so upset.

00:24:35.965 --> 00:24:41.060
Well, since she comes back the end of the summer, I think nothing ever happened.

00:24:41.060 --> 00:24:46.327
She said she had breast cancer and didn't want to die in front of us and left.

00:24:46.327 --> 00:24:51.314
I said okay, fuck, wait, that's heavy Gets worse.

00:24:51.314 --> 00:25:03.047
A lie she had met a man while she was going to school, moved out to be with him, didn't find a job, decided she needed to come back because she couldn't afford to support herself.

00:25:03.047 --> 00:25:05.467
By this time my dad was done and he left.

00:25:05.467 --> 00:25:14.045
So now I have to live with her and this Knowing this she doesn't know, I know this Can't call her out on it.

00:25:14.339 --> 00:25:15.344
Because we don't talk about things.

00:25:15.364 --> 00:25:17.766
We don't talk about things Push that shit right under the rug.

00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:19.305
Okay, mom's got breast cancer.

00:25:19.305 --> 00:25:20.028
No, she doesn't.

00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:32.428
So I'm working with my dad on the weekends, okay working with my dad on the weekends and seeing him cry and just devastated from this whole crap, got to go home and watch her drink and get angry.

00:25:32.428 --> 00:25:40.096
And one night she sat there calling him the devil because he left and now he's got a new girlfriend and I said you know what?

00:25:40.096 --> 00:25:40.981
I'm tired of your shit.

00:25:40.981 --> 00:25:42.106
You need to shut the fuck up.

00:25:42.106 --> 00:25:49.188
She threw the wine glass at me, I took 38 stitches in my leg and shin, rushed me to the hospital.

00:25:49.188 --> 00:26:02.246
Of course she asked me to lie to the doctors about what had happened, which I did for her and you know, keeping the family Sure, of course but took the 37 stitches for her and said you know, this is bullshit, I'm going to go live with dad for a while.

00:26:02.306 --> 00:26:03.108
And I did that for a while.

00:26:03.108 --> 00:26:04.244
That didn't really work out.

00:26:04.244 --> 00:26:06.982
So I moved back with her.

00:26:06.982 --> 00:26:11.367
She you know financial problems, yada, yada, everything else.

00:26:11.367 --> 00:26:30.169
So I went to work, support her don't go to college right away to stay home and take care of mom About at the age of 20 or so she met a new guy and wants me out of the house, even though I had been taking care of her for several years.

00:26:30.169 --> 00:26:32.204
So is what it is.

00:26:33.067 --> 00:26:33.569
Who about.

00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:38.130
Fortunate enough, at 21, I meet my wife at the time.

00:26:38.130 --> 00:26:39.282
Well, excuse me.

00:26:39.423 --> 00:26:40.826
She's still your wife, I'm pretty sure.

00:26:40.826 --> 00:26:41.407
Wait a minute.

00:26:41.689 --> 00:26:48.665
She's my Sorry, amy, it's like I like to tell her she's my first wife, first and only wife.

00:26:48.686 --> 00:26:49.169
Yeah.

00:26:49.923 --> 00:26:54.042
But this June 30th will be 32 years of marriage, happy marriage.

00:26:54.124 --> 00:27:03.819
Yeah, best friend, I'm married so far over my head it's ridiculous we all know, yeah, we know, we know, I know everybody that's saying she is the most beautiful woman ever.

00:27:04.020 --> 00:27:09.819
She's the best yeah, started dating her she was 16, I was 21, it it happens scandalous scandalous.

00:27:10.121 --> 00:27:14.944
Didn't talk about that until just now I'm like why do you think I always dated older, right?

00:27:15.526 --> 00:27:16.788
she told me she was 18.

00:27:16.788 --> 00:27:18.711
We met funny story.

00:27:18.711 --> 00:27:20.922
You know my buddy's cruising central.

00:27:20.922 --> 00:27:25.230
See the chicks pull them over, get their numbers go out on a date.

00:27:25.230 --> 00:27:27.981
She's on her fall break.

00:27:27.981 --> 00:27:29.746
Whatever thought she was 18.

00:27:29.746 --> 00:27:32.612
Our first first movie was Fatal Attraction our first date.

00:27:32.632 --> 00:27:33.272
Oh God, I love that.

00:27:33.500 --> 00:27:37.743
Yeah, I know, and she went home and told her mom that night after our first date.

00:27:37.743 --> 00:27:38.807
That is the man I'm marrying.

00:27:38.807 --> 00:27:40.930
Okay, so that was it.

00:27:41.192 --> 00:27:41.413
Okay.

00:27:41.539 --> 00:27:47.051
We've been together ever since, so, except for a couple times, I broke up with her like a freaking idiot.

00:27:47.051 --> 00:27:48.020
I don't know why, but I did.

00:27:48.020 --> 00:27:51.464
I don't know why, but I did, but we ended up together and I couldn't be happier.

00:27:51.464 --> 00:27:53.027
She's everything.

00:27:53.027 --> 00:27:54.307
I rock everything.

00:27:54.647 --> 00:27:55.189
Does she?

00:27:55.189 --> 00:27:57.411
Do you get along with your?

00:27:57.411 --> 00:27:58.833
You don't get along with your mom now.

00:27:59.493 --> 00:28:00.974
So we'll get to that.

00:28:00.974 --> 00:28:03.544
Okay, a little, all right, I guess we'll probably.

00:28:03.544 --> 00:28:04.749
This is a good way to go.

00:28:05.260 --> 00:28:07.723
I would segue it only because we only have an hour show.

00:28:07.884 --> 00:28:14.173
Yeah, so then moved in with my, my sister, help her out.

00:28:14.173 --> 00:28:15.115
She has three boys.

00:28:15.115 --> 00:28:18.990
Her husband gets murdered, he's a piece of you know drug user.

00:28:18.990 --> 00:28:22.028
Everything else gets murdered by a gang, et cetera.

00:28:22.028 --> 00:28:26.347
Um so then fast forward.

00:28:26.347 --> 00:28:30.845
My sister calls me from Dallas, says hey, she's bawling.

00:28:30.845 --> 00:28:32.006
She says hey, she's bawling.

00:28:32.006 --> 00:28:39.173
She says did you know that our nephew's daughter is accusing him of molestation?

00:28:39.994 --> 00:28:42.257
Okay, so now I want to get this straight for a second.

00:28:42.257 --> 00:28:44.325
This is my sister's son, your sister's son, so your nephew.

00:28:44.325 --> 00:28:45.930
My nephew how old was he at that time?

00:28:46.039 --> 00:28:49.011
He is about 23 at this time.

00:28:49.011 --> 00:28:50.567
He's got a three-year-old daughter.

00:28:51.520 --> 00:28:53.023
And how old was the person accusing?

00:28:53.064 --> 00:28:54.708
him Three years old.

00:28:54.708 --> 00:28:56.130
Oh, it's his own daughter.

00:28:56.471 --> 00:28:57.753
Oh Well, and that happens.

00:28:57.819 --> 00:29:03.911
We've learned on the podcast that happens all too often, and his ex-wife was filing charges.

00:29:04.171 --> 00:29:04.451
Okay.

00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:09.432
So we decided did he do something to Jacqueline?

00:29:09.432 --> 00:29:15.292
And we asked Jacqueline and she was 12 at the time and she broke down and it did happen.

00:29:15.881 --> 00:29:21.265
You didn't say anything, Jackie, until they came and asked you yeah, Like the way that it all.

00:29:21.306 --> 00:29:43.125
I don't mean that in a, so don't take that the way that I said it, because I have my own shit and like it's an interesting how stuff comes out but I find that fascinating that that was a question that came this way instead of you telling them that way.

00:29:43.144 --> 00:29:44.246
Okay, yeah, I, I vividly remember that day.

00:29:44.246 --> 00:29:57.249
So the it all happened when, uh, between the ages of five and seven, okay, um, and I remember my cousins uh, well, the middle cousin of the three boys from that sister, um, him and his wife had come over to talk about it um, and my mom they were my dad.

00:29:57.249 --> 00:30:09.808
My cousin and his wife were outside and my mom asked me and I didn't even say anything, I just broke down crying, and I just remember her running to the back door and just pounding on the door, um, for my dad to come inside.

00:30:09.808 --> 00:30:13.134
And that was a crazy day in itself.

00:30:13.134 --> 00:30:31.329
And that was the first time where I'm like, okay, we're, we're not talking about this, because I was due to go to a friend's house that night and my mom was like I was sobbing and she was washing my face off in the sink of like the tears, and she was like you're not going to talk to her about this at all while you're over there.

00:30:31.329 --> 00:30:37.748
She was like you're not going to talk to her about this at all while you're over there.

00:30:37.748 --> 00:30:38.750
She was like you need to keep it to yourself.

00:30:38.750 --> 00:30:39.874
She was like we're not going to talk about this.

00:30:39.874 --> 00:30:41.839
She was like, especially since we're going to be filing charges and all of this stuff.

00:30:41.859 --> 00:30:47.173
And so from that moment on, we just we kept it to our immediate family.

00:30:47.173 --> 00:30:50.784
But, yeah, that was the first time I ever told anyone about.

00:30:50.784 --> 00:30:56.768
It was to my mom, um, I almost told um, a best friend of mine growing up.

00:30:56.768 --> 00:31:08.701
Um, actually a couple years, two, three years prior to me telling my mom, um, and something held me back and that the main thing was his voice in the back of my head saying don't tell anybody.

00:31:08.701 --> 00:31:22.422
Yeah, you know, um, but then from there, um, you can kind of take it over, because you guys had gone to go over to his house, right, yeah, so to murder him or yes?

00:31:23.083 --> 00:31:31.269
okay, no, no, I listen, I'm not kidding, I have the same shit that has happened in my family in different you know, different areas, and that is the first thing that comes to mind, or not.

00:31:31.369 --> 00:31:32.681
I say murder all the time on this.

00:31:32.760 --> 00:31:40.847
I don't know if that's the right thing or not um had my uh, his brother with him and, by the way, he had molested his own brother when he was younger.

00:31:40.847 --> 00:31:43.637
The guy was a real sick sob.

00:31:43.637 --> 00:31:52.691
I actually paid um ten thousand dollars in attorney fees because he had sex with two underage girls and I paid ten thousand dollars for an attorney to keep this SOB out of jail.

00:31:52.859 --> 00:31:54.306
If I had known I would never have.

00:31:54.306 --> 00:31:57.086
Kid was just a wreck.

00:31:57.086 --> 00:32:02.286
He had two girls pregnant out of wedlock within a month of each other after he left his first wife.

00:32:02.286 --> 00:32:05.509
He's just a real sexual predator piece of crap.

00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:07.224
So we went over to his house.

00:32:07.224 --> 00:32:10.768
There may or may not have been a gun involved.

00:32:10.768 --> 00:32:12.815
He didn't answer the door.

00:32:12.815 --> 00:32:14.903
It was going to look like an accident if something happened.

00:32:14.903 --> 00:32:18.431
Um went to my sister's house.

00:32:18.431 --> 00:32:27.561
He showed up there and, uh, talked to him and he's I don't remember, I don't remember type of stuff right, had my phone on the table recording.

00:32:27.561 --> 00:32:28.625
He didn't understand that.

00:32:28.625 --> 00:32:41.413
I got up and I went over to him and I said if you ever touch my daughter again, I will kill you yeah and I smacked him across the face and I said don't even get up, it's the last thing you'll do yeah, I walked out.

00:32:41.614 --> 00:32:43.160
Yeah, um press charges.

00:32:43.160 --> 00:32:50.750
They 100 believed it was enough to um prosecute um he's in jail right now, right?

00:32:50.750 --> 00:32:54.017
He's 51, 51 years without parole.

00:32:54.017 --> 00:32:58.442
Yeah, that's they locked the jury through the book at him.

00:32:58.442 --> 00:33:04.212
Um, during the trial, it was unbelievable.

00:33:04.212 --> 00:33:12.950
Um, my mother, my oldest sister, my middle sister, got up on the stand and made us the bad guys.

00:33:12.950 --> 00:33:15.653
We were the bad guys.

00:33:15.653 --> 00:33:22.651
I was doing it to get even with him, which was a joke because he was.

00:33:22.651 --> 00:33:25.020
I got him a job at where I was working.

00:33:25.141 --> 00:33:36.010
He got fired for fraud yeah, it doesn't um but for somehow that was supposed to have been me getting, even because he got fired for fraud, even though I got three promotions after that what does that feel like?

00:33:36.070 --> 00:33:38.559
having having your well and god?

00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:50.965
That's a really complicated dynamic, because you understand the love that you have for your kids and if someone came and accused your kid of something right like where does what does that even look like right for who you defend and whose side you take?

00:33:50.965 --> 00:33:51.727
And all of that.

00:33:51.727 --> 00:33:55.961
Like I'm not justifying anyone's behavior on anything, I'm just coming from a place of curiosity.

00:33:55.961 --> 00:34:00.432
That's a family ender, what, what, what you guys are talking about, that's a.

00:34:00.432 --> 00:34:06.141
We don't go back from that, like I always am going to come from the side of okay, let's work it out, let's whatever.

00:34:06.982 --> 00:34:12.853
If you never talk to him again, I'm on your side, just so you know, like that's no, yeah, and, and I took the stand in the trial.

00:34:13.634 --> 00:35:09.224
Um, my sister flew in from dallas and took the stand, which was outrageous because she didn't really have any inside information about what was going on, about who she was, about any of this um she tried to sit there and at the time so I was about 13 once the trial actually happened um, and at that point his father was actually paying for me to do um local community theater, and they tried sitting there and they were like, well, she acts, she acts, so obviously she's acting and she's making this up, that's hurtful, yeah, and it's like then she used a story of me on the stand from when I it was a few years prior and that particular cousin, um, had we had given him one of our cats and um, he got rid of the cat and gave it to some random person instead of offering to give it back to us, and I cried as a nine-year-old kid of course you're gonna

00:35:09.324 --> 00:35:16.581
sob when you just had a family member get rid of one of your favorite animals and so she tried to use that against me on the stand and call me over dramatic.

00:35:16.581 --> 00:35:19.934
So it was like they were reaching for stuff well, here's, here's what I'll say.

00:35:20.938 --> 00:35:22.262
This screams out to me.

00:35:22.262 --> 00:35:24.710
They're hurt and they're lashing out.

00:35:24.710 --> 00:35:27.760
Right, because that whole saying about hurt people hurt people.

00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:34.576
They don't even know how to to process what was brought to front door, especially from a place where you're a family that doesn't talk about shit.

00:35:34.576 --> 00:35:41.041
Right Now, you're coming out with this facts and are willing to speak about it, because that's the right thing to do, right.

00:35:41.041 --> 00:35:44.610
Bringing this up, taking this to trial, that's the right thing to do, right.

00:35:44.610 --> 00:35:58.177
That's that, in and of itself, what that allows for other people, so that when, when people go to their parents or to other people and speak their truth, we believe them, we don't question that shit.

00:35:58.177 --> 00:36:00.465
Right, like that's where we need to be as a society.

00:36:00.465 --> 00:36:08.465
Where it isn't, oh, we're going to make you, you know the the person who then we're going to victimize again by not believing what you say.

00:36:08.465 --> 00:36:09.568
It's's outrageous.

00:36:09.568 --> 00:36:17.751
You know, if we teach our daughters nothing, it's when, when the perpetrator says don't tell, or whatever we need to teach our children.

00:36:17.911 --> 00:36:18.532
You speak up.

00:36:18.532 --> 00:36:24.804
You speak up at full volume because you can heal the shit that happened, right, it's the shame that you carry around after that.

00:36:24.804 --> 00:36:25.706
Think about that.

00:36:25.706 --> 00:36:46.769
Think about that, Jackie for like, okay, yes, this fucked up thing happened, which is disgusting, but think about how much of a bigger impact carrying that shame around, not being able to go to your parents and say this motherfucker did this to me right, which, in which case, will get you help, you know, to heal from that, will support you, will believe you right.

00:36:46.769 --> 00:36:49.297
That, to me, is where we have to make big changes.

00:36:49.297 --> 00:36:54.746
For stuff we can't have it where we're not talking about it where it's oh, we can't bring that.

00:36:54.746 --> 00:36:57.769
We're supposed to have our parents and our family be our defenders.

00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:03.289
And it's unfortunate that your sisters and your mom went the way that they did.

00:37:03.289 --> 00:37:18.889
As far as I'm concerned, enjoy your lives Like you can offer forgiveness to them for you, which I highly encourage you to do if you haven't done that, because if not, you're carrying that shit around, not them, and just they did the best that they could in that situation.

00:37:18.889 --> 00:37:29.387
It's unfortunate that it turned out the way that it did and it's unfortunate that their best is pretty basic bitch shit, right, but that's their best right.

00:37:31.664 --> 00:37:35.940
And then at the sentencing, I chose not to read my statement.

00:37:35.940 --> 00:37:38.373
I gave the statement to the judge for sentencing.

00:37:38.721 --> 00:37:40.668
I really wanted to take the high road.

00:37:40.668 --> 00:37:45.291
In the whole thing I said nothing derogatory or negative on the stand.

00:37:45.291 --> 00:37:48.369
I wasn't happy when he was convicted.

00:37:48.369 --> 00:37:51.967
We sat there very stoic, did not want to celebrate any of it.

00:37:51.967 --> 00:37:54.748
We really wanted to just let them know this was a hard thing.

00:37:54.748 --> 00:37:57.545
Yeah, because it goes back to the keep it in the family of.

00:37:57.545 --> 00:38:04.211
They thought I should have not prosecuted because we needed to keep it within the family.

00:38:04.271 --> 00:38:05.516
Of course, and he would have learned his lesson.

00:38:05.516 --> 00:38:07.447
Yeah, we don't want to bring attention to that.

00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:13.472
No, we're not doing that, you're going away so that you don't victimize other people, which would have happened.

00:38:15.244 --> 00:38:16.568
Of course that's a pattern.

00:38:16.628 --> 00:38:29.385
That's a pattern when you have it's a sick human being it really is that is not going to accept help or look for help when he can't admit what he has done.

00:38:29.385 --> 00:38:34.342
The first step is admitting you have a problem, right, and that's a problem what he had.

00:38:34.342 --> 00:38:47.335
So my father got up there, though, during the victim statement him and his wife at the time and defended him and again made us look like we were unduly prosecuting.

00:38:47.539 --> 00:38:49.123
God, that's fucking terrible.

00:38:49.164 --> 00:38:52.572
It was horrible, so I made the decision at that time.

00:38:52.572 --> 00:38:54.487
I did not need that in my life.

00:38:54.487 --> 00:38:58.554
So you talk about giving them forgiveness for what they've done and everything else Not for them.

00:38:58.574 --> 00:38:59.579
For you yes.

00:38:59.599 --> 00:38:59.820
For you.

00:38:59.820 --> 00:39:19.588
For me, I'm as at peace as I could be with it right, so at peace with it that I found out that my father had died last year sometime and they were having the ceremony up in Kansas to bury him next to my grandparents in October.

00:39:19.588 --> 00:39:21.353
I said, you know what?

00:39:21.353 --> 00:39:25.166
I'm going to reach out to my sister, get the details and I'm going to show up for his funeral.

00:39:25.166 --> 00:39:29.110
So I made peace with that part of it Least I could do.

00:39:29.110 --> 00:39:32.965
Well, that caused some problems with my wife.

00:39:32.965 --> 00:39:35.012
No, I bet I've met amy.

00:39:35.012 --> 00:39:46.423
Yeah, so, um, you know, I was at the point where I was willing to look past everything and at least give them the grace.

00:39:46.423 --> 00:39:49.788
Yeah, not happening with amy.

00:39:49.788 --> 00:39:53.851
Amy left me that night yeah, I believe that.

00:39:55.454 --> 00:39:57.981
No, she amy so hurt in that situation.

00:39:58.021 --> 00:40:06.387
How could you not be as a mother when, in that situation, not only, not only is your daughter in a situation where you couldn't, didn't defend her because she didn't know.

00:40:06.387 --> 00:40:15.621
Like, as a mom, when your daughter comes and brings that shit to your front door, it's literally the most helpless feeling on the planet, like, and you there's nothing you can do to go back and fix that.

00:40:15.621 --> 00:40:31.170
To go back like it literally is the worst possible feeling and then to have not only no support from your family, but then also you guys are the villains in that story because you wanted to make something right, like she's not wrong no, she's not wrong, she's not right.

00:40:31.429 --> 00:40:38.110
And I, but I you know, I told, I told you know, I asked jacklyn if it was okay yeah, she's like, yeah, go ahead, reach out.

00:40:38.110 --> 00:40:47.442
And my older sister, no, definitely not, because she didn't want to talk to me anyway I know she would rather see me dead than anything.

00:40:47.442 --> 00:40:49.565
That's fine yep, my mother misses me.

00:40:49.565 --> 00:40:57.347
Yeah, her boy, her youngest, yeah, um, but she's still a crazy woman, but she's still my mother she's still.

00:40:57.387 --> 00:40:58.190
She's still your mom.

00:40:58.190 --> 00:41:00.487
You know there's something to be said for that relationship.

00:41:00.487 --> 00:41:07.628
I can't imagine that this is part of for me doing the work that I'm doing is I can see all of the perspectives right.

00:41:07.628 --> 00:41:10.402
I see amy's perspective I see jackie's perspective.

00:41:10.481 --> 00:41:11.563
I see your perspective.

00:41:11.563 --> 00:41:13.286
I see your mom's perspective.

00:41:13.286 --> 00:41:22.873
I look at my son right now and I think I can't imagine like it would rip my soul out to not have a relationship with him in any capacity.

00:41:22.873 --> 00:41:32.501
Like so I understand that right, like I understand that from the mom and for you as the son wanting to actually foster something, that's there, right.

00:41:32.521 --> 00:41:41.784
Yeah, and it's funny because this emotion is coming more from my wife yeah, and her than from the loss of my family yeah, that's where it's crazy.

00:41:41.844 --> 00:41:42.103
Yeah.

00:41:42.123 --> 00:41:49.356
Right, Because you know losing that relationship is less important than losing my wife and my daughter.

00:41:49.356 --> 00:41:53.155
Yeah, you know it's insane, but it is what it is.

00:41:53.606 --> 00:41:55.864
There's so much hurt to go around in that situation.

00:41:55.864 --> 00:42:00.657
I mean it's so multi-layered, for how all of that went down Right.

00:42:00.764 --> 00:42:08.827
Well, and I think even too, for my parents they didn't realize how much it affected me, especially in my adulthood.

00:42:08.827 --> 00:42:17.815
My parents, they didn't realize how much it affected me, especially in my adulthood, because I was state mandated to go to therapy and the state paid for it, which was great and everything.

00:42:17.815 --> 00:42:30.668
But my mom had a really hard time finding me a therapist, because a lot of therapists didn't want to deal with a child that was actively going through a trial which was kind of crazy to me.

00:42:30.688 --> 00:42:34.164
Right, you would think that you would want to support that, but I understand, like liability and I get it yeah liability wise.

00:42:34.224 --> 00:42:48.318
I totally understood that, um, but I think, with his family reaching back out, they mainly reached back out and were able to reach back out when his father died because my brother had been in contact with them.

00:42:49.340 --> 00:42:53.572
Um and my brother was kept out of the dark from a lot of the situation.

00:42:53.572 --> 00:43:01.195
He wasn't at the trial at all, he was in college at the time, so he didn't know Um and he.

00:43:01.195 --> 00:43:09.277
He also didn't understand how it affected my childhood, um, and how my childhood was vastly different than what his was.

00:43:09.277 --> 00:43:11.911
So I don't blame him for that.

00:43:11.911 --> 00:43:18.969
But he also didn't see the fact that my grandmother was sitting there as I was on the stand for an hour and a half she was laughing at me.

00:43:18.969 --> 00:43:24.532
She was making comments to the point where the judge had to threaten to throw her out of the courtroom multiple times.

00:43:24.532 --> 00:43:42.336
But when his family had reached back out, he had asked me if I wanted to speak with my aunt, particularly the one that lives in Texas, and because her and I had a really close relationship and her testifying was a blind side, we had no idea.

00:43:42.336 --> 00:43:51.099
She told me that she supported me from the beginning, that she'd be there for me, and then she turns and testifies against me um, and so I think it was.

00:43:52.067 --> 00:44:05.311
That was one of the moments that like triggered for me to have abandonment issues that I'm still unpacking and just like digging through to this day, yeah, um, and so he had asked me if I wanted to talk to them and I was like you know what?

00:44:05.311 --> 00:44:09.768
I was like they've missed every single important life event in my life.

00:44:09.768 --> 00:44:10.992
They don't know who I am.

00:44:10.992 --> 00:44:13.498
They've missed out on over half of my life.

00:44:13.498 --> 00:44:18.907
At this point, like why would I allow someone in who's caused me so much hurt and caused me so much mental damage?

00:44:18.907 --> 00:44:21.934
Why would I let them back in?

00:44:21.934 --> 00:44:25.530
Why would I ever let them come back into my life and wreak havoc again?

00:44:25.530 --> 00:44:27.175
Because we know they haven't changed.

00:44:27.175 --> 00:44:35.072
And I mean, even my brother talked to me after the funeral and he had talked to my grandmother and both of my aunts and he was like you're fucking crazy.

00:44:35.072 --> 00:44:37.150
He's like they're still crazy to this day.

00:44:37.150 --> 00:44:44.702
And I was like, yeah, I was like now you're finally realizing what I had to endure and all the crazy bullshit they were throwing at me.

00:44:45.204 --> 00:44:54.088
Well, and being able to put a period at the end of it and say this isn't going to be a thing, like it's unfortunate, mark, that you're not going to have that relationship.

00:44:54.088 --> 00:45:04.626
But if Amy says this is not a, this is an either, or like I'm either in or I'm out, and I'm this is a deal breaker for me, which I I stand behind her in that situation.

00:45:04.626 --> 00:45:09.257
I totally understand that there's so much hurt and multi-layered in this whole situation.00:45:09.824 --> 00:45:17.512


Normally I'm not the the fan of like cutting people off and whatever, but I also understand that, like you can choose, have a chosen family as well.00:45:17.753 --> 00:45:25.588


You know you can have the people that are important, that ride hard for you now that you don't have to always have this conflict for because life is too fucking short, right?00:45:25.588 --> 00:45:31.753


So what is the lesson that we're meant to learn in that is where I come from which is it's okay that that's not those people.00:45:31.753 --> 00:45:33.291


You can say you did the best that you could.00:45:33.291 --> 00:45:35.378


This wasn't a good situation for anybody, right?00:45:35.378 --> 00:45:37.605


This isn't a good situation for your mom, for your sisters.00:45:37.605 --> 00:45:41.050


Can you imagine if somebody had come and said that about your son and then what the fuck would you do?00:45:41.050 --> 00:45:52.090


Like you can understand that was where that was and we're moving on.00:45:52.090 --> 00:45:59.393


You know you can do that and allow them to just do you stay in your family and shore things up with your family.00:45:59.806 --> 00:46:31.612


What have you done, jackie, as far as just kind of like working through this, therapy-wise or otherwise, or because when something like that happens, that young, I don't think a lot of people can, that don't understand that can get their heads around how that really spiders into every part of your life, your, your self-worth, your like you're talking about abandonment and rejection like you got about as fucked up as it gets, honestly because of the, because of the trial and the people not supporting you and then, you know, again, making you the villain in that story.00:46:31.612 --> 00:46:34.166


When you're a child like I, can't even I.00:46:34.166 --> 00:46:39.237


I can feel Amy's anger from here and and Amy, you're right, so that's crazy.00:46:39.925 --> 00:46:49.313


Yeah, I think, um, I didn't start realizing how much of an effect it had on me until I got into college and in my twenties and I finally got out of the house.00:46:49.313 --> 00:46:55.068


I think one of the turning points for me to actually start talking about it to other people outside of my family.00:46:55.068 --> 00:47:02.028


So I didn't talk about it to like a friend even until I was about 16, 17.00:47:02.028 --> 00:47:04.336


So the trial ended when I was about 13.00:47:04.336 --> 00:47:15.182


So I mean, like three, four years later I didn't start talking about it and it all came up because I had a friend, um, whose mom did tarot card readings and my past card.00:47:15.182 --> 00:47:23.666


The first word that popped up with it was abuse, um, and then abandonment after it and I just stopped um and it just released it.00:47:23.666 --> 00:47:38.012


But, um, within my 20s I mean, obviously I'm still in my 20s, but my like early 20s and getting into college and stuff I wreaked havoc on my life in my college years, made a lot of bad decisions.00:47:38.012 --> 00:47:48.757


I hurt my family a lot through that, but I think a lot of that stemmed from the fact of they didn't understand my mental health issues.00:47:48.757 --> 00:47:52.045


But I think a lot of that stemmed from the fact of they didn't understand my mental health issues.00:47:52.045 --> 00:47:58.123


They didn't realize that it had stemmed from the trial and from all of that trauma.00:47:58.123 --> 00:48:04.804


And I remember the first time I ever realized that it was abandonment issues that I was dealing with.00:48:04.804 --> 00:48:06.449


I had told my mom and I was like, hey, I think I have abandonment issues.00:48:06.449 --> 00:48:09.568


Like my therapist and I were kind of talking about it and my mom's like what are you talking about?00:48:09.568 --> 00:48:10.072


You don I have abandonment issues.00:48:10.072 --> 00:48:10.882


Like my therapist and I were kind of talking about it and my mom's like what are you talking about?00:48:10.882 --> 00:48:11.235


You don't have abandonment issues.00:48:11.235 --> 00:48:13.990


Like your parents are still together, like all of this stuff.00:48:13.990 --> 00:48:15.972


And I was like, no, like think about it.00:48:15.972 --> 00:48:34.114


Like actually, like I lost my entire family, like my mom's side of the family is small, very small in comparison to the side of the family that with his side, and so I just felt like I lost all of it and I didn't realize that.00:48:34.135 --> 00:48:45.103


And halfway through college for me it was a little more than halfway, it was this summer, going to my senior year of college Some issues arised with my brother and he left my life for a while.00:48:45.103 --> 00:48:49.512


I also left his, and that triggered my abandonment issues.00:48:49.512 --> 00:49:07.556


I also was seeing a guy at the time and he left my life and I felt like I didn't have anyone and from that moment I almost took my own life, and that was one of the hardest things to have to explain to my parents.00:49:07.556 --> 00:49:19.596


And that was one of the hardest things to have to explain to my parents like, hey, like I'm not okay, like all of this trauma is now coming up for me and I'm having to work through it and I don't know how to, and I didn't know how to.00:49:19.596 --> 00:49:30.054


And so I was admitted to the mental hospital and I think that was kind of the turning point for our family in terms of, hey, maybe we should take mental health seriously, maybe maybe we should.00:49:30.074 --> 00:49:31.398


This isn't just a buzzword.00:49:31.398 --> 00:49:34.847


This isn't just a buzzword that they're talking about, right, yeah?00:49:35.288 --> 00:49:35.989


and um.00:49:35.989 --> 00:49:57.126


I think, from that moment on um, I've been very grateful for my parents and um how they've, you know, accepted my mental health issues and um are more understanding of, you know, accepted my mental health issues and um are more understanding of, you know, all of the all of the labels that they have decided to put on me, as they do within the mental health industry.00:49:57.126 --> 00:50:09.657


Um, and I think it's still kind of hard for them to to understand that it's a daily battle, um, even within my relationship with them and my relationship, even with my partner.00:50:09.657 --> 00:50:16.949


I'm so grateful to have such a patient partner as I'm like unpacking these abandonment issues even within our relationship.00:50:16.969 --> 00:50:17.791


They're everywhere.00:50:17.831 --> 00:50:18.474


They're everywhere.00:50:18.844 --> 00:50:25.110


They literally seep into everything, which is, you know, when things trigger, you get curious about where they're coming from.00:50:25.110 --> 00:50:39.972


Because if you just keep pushing that stuff down right so like what you're talking about, of having a patient partner or having your parents be willing to speak with you about stuff you have to show your parents grace, because they were raised in a generation where it was don't be a pussy, we're not going to deal with emotions, right?00:50:39.972 --> 00:50:43.827


So so your mom and I used to be twins.00:50:43.827 --> 00:50:49.559


I happen to have come to the dark side where I now allow myself to be vulnerable and emotional.00:50:49.605 --> 00:50:50.969


She's probably disappointed in me.00:50:50.969 --> 00:50:53.291


Let's be honest, Like Jesus Christ.00:50:53.887 --> 00:50:54.891


But it doesn't matter.00:50:55.485 --> 00:51:02.065


Your mom and I used to twin in that, because I was raised the same way that emotions are vulnerability and that that's a weakness and like all of the things.00:51:02.065 --> 00:51:06.076


So you have parents that raised you who started from that place.00:51:06.076 --> 00:51:07.706


We didn't talk about stuff.00:51:07.706 --> 00:51:11.072


To now we talk about all the things.00:51:11.331 --> 00:51:31.726


Right, your dad is sitting here on this couch, brave enough to have these conversations while you talk about this stuff, which kudos, kudos to both of you guys, because it's big stuff, but I think so much good comes from that because you can really get to know the effect that this had, the effect that this had on your dad of losing his entire family.00:51:31.726 --> 00:51:37.987


Right, I mean, yes, you guys are this family, but your siblings and your parents, that's your family too.00:51:37.987 --> 00:51:40.112


Right, I mean, it's a different layer of that.00:51:40.112 --> 00:51:42.206


He doesn't have any of that anymore.00:51:42.206 --> 00:51:55.012


Right, because, which is, I have full body goosebumps right now, which is completely fair to say that, and I don't disagree with your choice, but I still understand that that's a huge loss and grieving that.00:51:55.152 --> 00:52:07.869


Right, I mean, so there's just there's so many different layers, so for them to even be at this point of let's talk about these things help me understand and I've done that with my daughters too, of like, help me understand, understand, because I didn't deal with mental health.00:52:07.869 --> 00:52:11.545


I've woken up on the right side of the bed every day my entire life, and isn't this great, you know.00:52:11.545 --> 00:52:16.407


So when my daughters are like I'm fucking depressed, I can't get out of bed, I'm like, well, they just do it, just get out of bed.00:52:16.407 --> 00:52:25.760


They're like I don't understand, but that's the generation that your parents and I come from is like, well, shake it off, you know, and so for.00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:30.246


For us that grew up in that generation, we're, we're at a loss because we don't understand.00:52:30.789 --> 00:52:35.929


You know some of that kind of stuff and I think with that too, I didn't start that.00:52:35.929 --> 00:52:41.507


I've always given my parents grace when it comes to that situation because I couldn't imagine being in their shoes, um.00:52:41.507 --> 00:52:48.617


But I think the real pivotal moment of when I saw my dad struggling was with um his drinking.00:52:48.617 --> 00:53:03.655


It was hard for me to have to watch um, as it was during COVID, and I'll let him expand more on that but I was so angry at him for doing that, and wasting his life away is what it looked like to me.00:53:03.655 --> 00:53:11.086


But I also had to understand that he was fighting his own demons that he didn't want to voice to my mom and I.00:53:11.086 --> 00:53:20.132


And that was hard for me because I was voicing my own demons, but I felt like I didn't give him the space to also do that.00:53:20.132 --> 00:53:21.777


Um, but I don't.00:53:21.777 --> 00:53:26.367


I also don't know where the drinking stemmed from.00:53:26.407 --> 00:53:29.775


But for me, like that's what I saw, I saw a man who was suffering.00:53:29.775 --> 00:53:35.728


Yeah, I saw a man who, who had lost his whole family and I couldn't help but feel guilty for that Right In a way.00:53:35.728 --> 00:53:43.552


Um, I had so much guilt of it, felt like I ripped his family away from him, it felt like, but at the same time I also had like survivor's guilt.00:53:43.552 --> 00:53:50.485


Yes, you know, there's not a lot of women out there who get the opportunity to have their abuser locked in jail for 52 fucking years.00:53:51.507 --> 00:53:53.375


Yeah, that's a big deal, that's a really big deal.00:53:54.306 --> 00:54:02.990


And later on I had found out about him doing it to younger women and my dad paying for that attorney and stuff and I'm like God, what a fucking slap in the face.00:54:02.990 --> 00:54:05.606


Yeah, you know how long have you been sober Mark.00:54:06.288 --> 00:54:06.608


October.00:54:06.608 --> 00:54:13.900


I've got my prison tat up here actually with the date October 21st will be five years.00:54:13.900 --> 00:54:33.181


Good for you, and I think you know it's kind of weird because I think corresponding with her mental health growth acceptance has corresponded with mine from a standpoint of I am a completely different person than I was five years ago.00:54:34.427 --> 00:54:35.692


I mean in every way, shape and form.00:54:35.731 --> 00:54:44.175


I believe that this is going to get real emotional Because Amy the black soul, the black soul.00:54:44.255 --> 00:54:44.938


I love it.00:54:44.938 --> 00:54:46.204


She's going to stick with that nickname.00:54:46.204 --> 00:54:46.405


I love it.00:54:46.405 --> 00:54:59.561


I love it she's going to stick with that nickname Was the most unbelievable supportive, caring, loving rock that any man could ever have.00:54:59.561 --> 00:55:04.391


You know, when I got sick, I was sick.00:55:04.452 --> 00:55:05.976


And I think you know that I fucking know.00:55:05.976 --> 00:55:09.360


I've never talked to Amy scared in my life.00:55:09.360 --> 00:55:11.532


I remember where I was standing when she called me.00:55:11.532 --> 00:55:13.530


She said he won't fucking listen to me.00:55:13.530 --> 00:55:15.856


That's typical.00:55:15.856 --> 00:55:18.373


Put that motherfucker on the phone.00:55:18.373 --> 00:55:21.572


She was scared, she was scared.00:55:22.407 --> 00:55:23.311


You were in bad shape.00:55:23.311 --> 00:55:27.634


I was dying For those that don't know, Mark.00:55:28.226 --> 00:55:34.795


Mark drank himself to a bad cirrhosis situation and other medical stuff where his body was shutting down.00:55:35.387 --> 00:55:42.574


It was MELD scores, or the health of the liver score, that they determine whether or not you need a transplant.00:55:42.574 --> 00:55:45.273


15 is your number for a transplant.00:55:45.273 --> 00:55:49.012


I was at a 25, 26 at that point.00:55:49.012 --> 00:55:50.516


That is that is done.00:55:50.516 --> 00:55:52.226


Yeah, that is you're done.00:55:52.367 --> 00:55:52.606


Yeah.00:55:53.088 --> 00:56:04.231


So, thank God, uh, with Amy, she basically tied me to the car and said we're going in drove me in and the other thing.00:56:04.231 --> 00:56:13.619


That was a saver and I and I won't give them a free plug on your thing, but there is a transplant organization here in town which is worldwide known.00:56:13.905 --> 00:56:15.630


I mean they are the most.00:56:15.630 --> 00:56:20.012


It's like the country club of hospitals, the most unbelievable thing.00:56:20.012 --> 00:56:22.594


They had I think 14 doctors assigned to me.00:56:22.594 --> 00:56:32.211


I still to this day have to go to follow up patient, to follow up, because I went there, they told me what I needed to do.00:56:32.211 --> 00:56:33.751


I had to make the choice.00:56:33.751 --> 00:56:38.052


I did not believe I was an alcoholic and I'll tell you why.00:56:38.632 --> 00:56:39.454


Fascinating.00:56:39.454 --> 00:56:42.490


Tell you why, fascinating, I thought the same thing.00:56:42.490 --> 00:56:45.795


I fucking knew I had a problem for years.00:56:45.795 --> 00:56:50.565


You didn't, you went in and you didn't know you were an alcoholic, absolutely.00:56:50.565 --> 00:56:54.231


Oh, mark, mark, say more so here's the thing I realize now.00:56:55.112 --> 00:56:56.414


There are different levels of it.00:56:56.414 --> 00:57:01.831


Okay, we, we, we me, my family.00:57:01.831 --> 00:57:04.340


An alcoholic is somebody on the street corner.00:57:04.340 --> 00:57:08.148


Yeah, an alcoholic is somebody that can't keep a job yeah you, it's in jail.00:57:08.208 --> 00:57:10.592


Yeah, you were, that is getting duis.00:57:10.612 --> 00:57:11.855


That is beating their wife.00:57:11.855 --> 00:57:13.918


That can't keep a relationship together.00:57:13.918 --> 00:57:21.103


That's an alcoholic, yeah, a guy who has a professional career, a wife of 20 plus years, two kids.00:57:21.103 --> 00:57:27.072


He's put through college, a advanced degree in mathematics, sure smart guy it guy.00:57:27.072 --> 00:57:29.916


It's not an alcoholic, not an alcoholic.00:57:29.916 --> 00:57:32.686


Alcoholics come in very different forms.00:57:32.987 --> 00:57:35.554


You look back now and you realize the error of your ways, right?00:57:35.574 --> 00:57:46.266


I realize now that if I needed to drink, I'm an alcoholic and I needed to drink, right, that made me an alcoholic.00:57:46.266 --> 00:57:48.867


My liver told me you're an alcoholic.00:57:48.867 --> 00:57:52.010


Yeah, I had underlying medical conditions, but that's no excuse.00:57:52.010 --> 00:57:54.873


If I didn't drink, I wouldn't have been in that condition.00:57:55.213 --> 00:57:56.014


Have you unpacked?00:57:56.014 --> 00:57:56.675


Why you drank?00:57:57.416 --> 00:58:02.141


You know, I think it was a excuse for me.00:58:02.141 --> 00:58:03.925


It was.00:58:03.925 --> 00:58:09.961


It was a way for me to not deal with the real pain, yeah, and not deal with the real pain, yeah, and not deal with the real issues.00:58:10.043 --> 00:58:17.913


that was your number of choice right that was my number of choice as well too, and we can all it's an easy choice, and it is an easy choice because it's very socially acceptable.00:58:17.972 --> 00:58:18.996


Right, it's for me.00:58:18.996 --> 00:58:25.588


I was in construction and the more I could drink, the more I more street cred I had with the construction dudes and it was like, oh, she couldn't really put them back.00:58:25.588 --> 00:58:32.322


I was like, oh yeah, what that should say to you is, oh, she's got a pile of shit, she's numbing, she can really fucking pour on top of that.00:58:32.322 --> 00:58:34.547


Very impressive very impressive.00:58:34.568 --> 00:58:45.862


So I think I think there's a problem, though with there's a correlation to me between the mental health of people and how long it has been a stigma to look at.00:58:45.862 --> 00:58:49.192


There's not really something wrong with them yeah what is?00:58:49.371 --> 00:58:51.065


because you can't see a mental.00:58:51.065 --> 00:58:53.733


You can't see a broke you a broken mind.00:58:53.733 --> 00:58:55.985


You can't see like you can see a broken leg or a broken limb.00:58:55.985 --> 00:58:59.112


Okay, it's a sickness, though you.00:58:59.112 --> 00:59:07.338


You have a sickness if you have mental health and you need to be able to manage it, work through it, medic it.00:59:07.338 --> 00:59:08.780


However, you get through it.00:59:08.780 --> 00:59:12.708


Alcoholism's the same way, but society doesn't look at it the same way.00:59:12.708 --> 00:59:22.686


Society looks at an alcoholic as a broken person who is less than we as alcoholics destroy our lives in the process of doing all of that.00:59:22.706 --> 00:59:25.992


So I'm proud of you for five years.00:59:25.992 --> 00:59:27.467


That's a really powerful thing and I give back now.00:59:27.527 --> 00:59:30.030


That's a really powerful thing and I give back now.00:59:30.992 --> 00:59:31.914


That's all we're supposed to do.00:59:32.034 --> 00:59:36.527


Part of the program that they made me go to I know.00:59:37.992 --> 00:59:38.875


I've met your sponsor.00:59:38.875 --> 00:59:40.869


She's amazing.00:59:40.869 --> 00:59:41.552


I know her well.00:59:43.824 --> 00:59:44.945


She's the best person ever.00:59:44.945 --> 00:59:47.606


They made me go to IPO Intensive Outpatient Therapy and I'm sitting here going.00:59:47.606 --> 00:59:48.047


Why am I here?00:59:48.047 --> 00:59:48.447


I don't need this.00:59:48.447 --> 00:59:51.329


They made me go to IPO intensive outpatient or IOP intensive outpatient therapy, and I'm sitting here going.00:59:51.329 --> 00:59:51.809


Why am I here?00:59:51.809 --> 00:59:52.989


I don't need this.00:59:52.989 --> 00:59:53.909


And you know what?00:59:53.909 --> 00:59:55.349


I didn't because I'll tell you what.00:59:55.349 --> 00:59:57.090


By the second class I was teaching it.00:59:57.090 --> 00:59:57.851


Okay.00:59:57.851 --> 01:00:02.092


Then I realized you are supposed to be here, mark, you know why?01:00:02.092 --> 01:00:12.998


Because you're in as bad a shape as all of these people that are on the call, laying in their bed feeling sorry for themselves, thinking they're going to die.01:00:12.998 --> 01:00:14.719


You're here for a reason.01:00:14.719 --> 01:00:18.380


You're here to give them a reason to live.01:00:18.380 --> 01:00:20.681


And it was amazing.01:00:20.681 --> 01:00:25.164


So I still go back to that same intensive outpatient therapy group.01:00:25.164 --> 01:00:29.114


They invite me back to speak to their people.01:00:29.134 --> 01:00:33.135


They're having a hard time getting through, I love it Because I am now off the liver transplant list.01:00:33.135 --> 01:00:37.416


My MELD score is normal, basically like a normal person.01:00:37.724 --> 01:00:38.849


It's unbelievable.01:00:38.849 --> 01:00:43.056


Yeah, from how bad of a shape you were to you sitting here across, incredible.01:00:43.905 --> 01:00:45.532


And I'm so much more at peace.01:00:45.532 --> 01:00:48.454


I understand people, I meditate.01:00:48.454 --> 01:00:58.376


You've got to find this solace in yourself, and if you need an external source, God whatever that may be find it.01:00:59.565 --> 01:01:01.110


Find your higher power wherever.01:01:01.110 --> 01:01:02.213


That is Exactly right.01:01:02.213 --> 01:01:05.034


It doesn't matter what it looks like for you, your higher power could live within yourself.01:01:04.949 --> 01:01:05.382


It's totally true, it really can.01:01:05.382 --> 01:01:06.311


Your power could live within yourself.01:01:06.311 --> 01:01:18.541


It's totally true, it really can right, because I think the human mind is so powerful and your will to live is so powerful if you give yourself a reason to live.01:01:18.541 --> 01:01:25.034


You've just got to find that reason, whether it's for yourself, for a beautiful family like me Absolutely.01:01:25.034 --> 01:01:30.275


You've got to find that, because if you don't, you're just committing suicide.01:01:30.315 --> 01:01:34.795


Yeah slowly, you know, but anyway, put the bottle to your, to your head, and pull the trigger.01:01:34.815 --> 01:01:38.170


I mean, it's a real it's a real thing and as as you, jackie, watching that.01:01:38.170 --> 01:01:47.969


If you haven't already had big conversations about what that impact had, I encourage you guys to do that, because I think you learn a lot about each other.01:01:47.969 --> 01:01:51.775


And doing that and not from a place of being defensive right, nobody has to.01:01:51.775 --> 01:01:53.666


This is what it is, right, there's no, you don't.01:01:53.666 --> 01:01:56.074


You don't have to defend yourself, you don't have to defend yourself.01:01:56.074 --> 01:02:07.795


But it is fascinating in the family dynamic to really be able to unpack and say this is the impact this had on me and then just hold space for each other as you talk through that stuff, like if you don't come from back from a place of defensive.01:02:07.795 --> 01:02:10.786


So much growth happens in that, so much healing.01:02:10.786 --> 01:02:11.409


It's crazy.01:02:11.409 --> 01:02:13.894


Well, thank you guys for coming on today.01:02:13.894 --> 01:02:18.554


I could have talked to you guys for hours and hours and hours, but we they're going to cap us at one.01:02:18.554 --> 01:02:21.489


So, thank you, casey, we appreciate you.01:02:21.489 --> 01:02:34.795


So, yes, for this week, may I suggest talking with your family, having having big conversations where you don't come from a place of defensiveness, just from a place of curiosity.01:02:34.795 --> 01:02:35.938


So that's our time for today.01:02:36.097 --> 01:02:40.516


If you have questions, suggestions or think you have a story that you'd like to add to the podcast.01:02:40.516 --> 01:02:50.148


Send us an email Our email address is ladies at letsgetnakedpodcastcom and then do all the things to support the pod so that we can continue to do this important work.01:02:50.148 --> 01:02:51.992


Follow share rate and review.01:02:51.992 --> 01:02:53.516


We will catch you next time.01:02:53.516 --> 01:02:54.137


That's a wrap.01:02:54.137 --> 01:03:03.527


I'd love to help you get vulnerable.01:03:03.527 --> 01:03:04.628


Let's get naked.